2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Race Thread

[The Architect]

Is there anything coming from the team or otherwise that suggests this season isn't another write-off?

[stasera]

Race pace:

Stint 1 (all softs):
VER, 38.196
LEC, +0.656
PER, +0.700 (more laps)
SAI, +1.414
HAM, +1.610
ALO, +1.834
RUS, +1.849

Stint 3: (all hards)
VER, 36.804 (less laps)
PER, +0.233
ALO, +0.276
RUS, +0.791
SAI, +0.831
HAM, +0.885

[brucewayne]

Vasseur says that the tyre deg is a set-up issue. Big question is, will they be able to fix it this season? At the end of the day, nothing has changed since France 22. Why should we be able to fix it in the first place?

[SS454]

Vasseur says that the tyre deg is a set-up issue. Big question is, will they be able to fix it this season? At the end of the day, nothing has changed since France 22. Why should we be able to fix it in the first place?

They had 3 days of testing, FP1, FP2, and FP3 to get the car setup right.

[elnano14]

Vasseur says that the tyre deg is a set-up issue. Big question is, will they be able to fix it this season? At the end of the day, nothing has changed since France 22. Why should we be able to fix it in the first place?

They had 3 days testing in this track last week.
They had the whole FP1, FP2, FP3 this week
I have no idea what the **** they'd done with the set-up in those days lol

[stasera]

They had 3 days testing in this track last week.
They had the whole FP1, FP2, FP3 this week
I have no idea what the **** they'd done with the set-up in those days lol

they tried the wobbling rear wing.

but its difficult to believe its all are related to set-up. according to what our drivers said, for example, leclerc said something like: we knew during the tests that we were behind AM and RB in the race pace. during the practice, we thought it might be not true, but in the race, we understood that all our predictions in the tests were right.

[Greig]

[/B]

they tried the wobbling rear wing.

but its difficult to believe its all are related to set-up. according to what our drivers said, for example, leclerc said something like: we knew during the tests that we were behind AM and RB in the race pace. during the practice, we thought it might be not true, but in the race, we understood that all our predictions in the tests were right.

Where did he say that we are behind Aston Martin?

[brucewayne]

Where did he say that we are behind Aston Martin?

With Charles we are the second fastest team. With Sainz we aren’t.

[stasera]

Where did he say that we are behind Aston Martin?

dude, everyone says like that

https://twitter.com/marcamotor/statu...QUgX78Nmg&s=19

[stasera]

After the test I think we were hoping that we were wrong in predicting things. (rumours about the race pace better than Ferrari during the testing) But we were right. We are very far from them in race pace, and that was unfortunately unexpected

Charles Leclerc

[Greig]

After the test I think we were hoping that we were wrong in predicting things. (rumours about the race pace better than Ferrari during the testing) But we were right. We are very far from them in race pace, and that was unfortunately unexpected

Charles Leclerc

Thats about Red Bull.

[jgonzalesm6]

So during qualifying, they shut down Leclerc to "save the tires."

Then Ferrari decided to change the ERS and CE on Leclerc's car......to include Sainz's car whom had the CE(?) changed as well.

So did Ferrari stop Leclerc during qualifying to just "save the tires" or did they see something regarding the ERS or CE and stopped him early so they could change it later.

hmmmmm....something to think about it.

[Lebaronrouge]

Vasseur says that the tyre deg is a set-up issue. Big question is, will they be able to fix it this season? At the end of the day, nothing has changed since France 22. Why should we be able to fix it in the first place?

I am fundamentally optimistic when tackling those types of questions, so I apologise if I sound too naïve to some. France 2022 was a special event with a front-limited track, where Ferrari was not ready for the challenge. In Bahrain, a race-winner car is a car with excellent motricity out of corners. This characteristic was a defining factor of our previous car but was surprisingly gone since. But if we step back, we must recognise that Bahrain is a pretty unique track in what it demands and that teams have spent countless kilometres trying to set up their cars on this non-representative race. I can see two types of teams: The ones that have used these thousands of km to optimise their car for this unique race as much as they can but will probably struggle when they have to discover their cars in a totally different environment. On the other hand, some teams might have tried to use this track to test many different options, not necessarily adapted for this particular race track but anticipating the need for a broader range of setups for other and different tracks.

I think Ferrari is in the latter category, and I hope this explains why the performance was relatively poor today. As described, we have spent much of our testing time trying setups, different wings, and low downforce configurations. But it is possible that we were a bit carried away by those different tests and did not dedicate enough time to prepare for this event compared to other teams. As such, despite these thousands of km done on this track, we did not come up with the right set-up. Mercedes seems to also be in that situation since they were still comparing different rear wings during FP3.

I hope teams like AM or RB have focused so much on preparing this first event (hence their good results) that they will be a bit lost with their cars when it is about preparing them for other tracks. Although, to be honest, this does not sound like RB, but I would not be surprised if that were the case for Aston Martin or Williams.

[Tifoso]

*sigh*

[ntukza]

I am fundamentally optimistic when tackling those types of questions, so I apologise if I sound too naïve to some. France 2022 was a special event with a front-limited track, where Ferrari was not ready for the challenge. In Bahrain, a race-winner car is a car with excellent motricity out of corners. This characteristic was a defining factor of our previous car but was surprisingly gone since. But if we step back, we must recognise that Bahrain is a pretty unique track in what it demands and that teams have spent countless kilometres trying to set up their cars on this non-representative race. I can see two types of teams: The ones that have used these thousands of km to optimise their car for this unique race as much as they can but will probably struggle when they have to discover their cars in a totally different environment. On the other hand, some teams might have tried to use this track to test many different options, not necessarily adapted for this particular race track but anticipating the need for a broader range of setups for other and different tracks.

I think Ferrari is in the latter category, and I hope this explains why the performance was relatively poor today. As described, we have spent much of our testing time trying setups, different wings, and low downforce configurations. But it is possible that we were a bit carried away by those different tests and did not dedicate enough time to prepare for this event compared to other teams. As such, despite these thousands of km done on this track, we did not come up with the right set-up. Mercedes seems to also be in that situation since they were still comparing different rear wings during FP3.

I hope teams like AM or RB have focused so much on preparing this first event (hence their good results) that they will be a bit lost with their cars when it is about preparing them for other tracks. Although, to be honest, this does not sound like RB, but I would not be surprised if that were the case for Aston Martin or Williams.

Don't hope for that, mate. You'll be bitterly disappointed. Red Bull are not fools. They won at 15 venues last season. Setting up a car for the venue at hand is among the basic requirements of F1 racing.

[brucewayne]

This is too optimistic. Even if that’s the case, RB has an advantage of +1 second, even if it’s just 0.5 seconds on other tracks, the difference is too great to overcome.

[tifosi1993]

Ferrari need to bring on the developments and transform the SF23 as the best car of 2023. They did it last year with the F1-75, before TD39 kicked in, they can do it again.

[tifosi1993]

I am fundamentally optimistic when tackling those types of questions, so I apologise if I sound too naïve to some. France 2022 was a special event with a front-limited track, where Ferrari was not ready for the challenge. In Bahrain, a race-winner car is a car with excellent motricity out of corners. This characteristic was a defining factor of our previous car but was surprisingly gone since. But if we step back, we must recognise that Bahrain is a pretty unique track in what it demands and that teams have spent countless kilometres trying to set up their cars on this non-representative race. I can see two types of teams: The ones that have used these thousands of km to optimise their car for this unique race as much as they can but will probably struggle when they have to discover their cars in a totally different environment. On the other hand, some teams might have tried to use this track to test many different options, not necessarily adapted for this particular race track but anticipating the need for a broader range of setups for other and different tracks.

I think Ferrari is in the latter category, and I hope this explains why the performance was relatively poor today. As described, we have spent much of our testing time trying setups, different wings, and low downforce configurations. But it is possible that we were a bit carried away by those different tests and did not dedicate enough time to prepare for this event compared to other teams. As such, despite these thousands of km done on this track, we did not come up with the right set-up. Mercedes seems to also be in that situation since they were still comparing different rear wings during FP3.

I hope teams like AM or RB have focused so much on preparing this first event (hence their good results) that they will be a bit lost with their cars when it is about preparing them for other tracks. Although, to be honest, this does not sound like RB, but I would not be surprised if that were the case for Aston Martin or Williams.

AM is not a concern. Charles had them covered and would've finished P3 easily. He had no threats from anyone behind, until his retirement.

But the RB19 is a perfect car. It doesn't have any weakness. In an abrasive track surface of Bahrain, it literally had zero tyre drop off. We only show a glimpse of its pace when Perez was pushing hard in his pursuit of Charles. Max on the other hand was in a cruse mode. It is scary to thing what he could've done if he actually had to push.

[stasera]

AM is not a concern. Charles had them covered and would've finished P3 easily. He had no threats from anyone behind, until his retirement.

But the RB19 is a perfect car. It doesn't have any weakness. In an abrasive track surface of Bahrain, it literally had zero tyre drop off. We only show a glimpse of its pace when Perez was pushing hard in his pursuit of Charles. Max on the other hand was in a cruse mode. It is scary to thing what he could've done if he actually had to push.

so as rational guys here, should we give up our hopes from this year? actually i gave up but i need to find some particles of a hope

[Greig]

so as rational guys here, should we give up our hopes from this year? actually i gave up but i need to find some particles of a hope

If the gap is the same at Jeddah then I would say we have very little chance of beating Red Bull. Hopefully we are a lot closer.

[Rishu]

I'm stunned the kind of leap AM has taken. When was the last time a team improved this much between two seasons under same regulations? And how good is Dan Fallows?

[Toothlessrage*]

I'm stunned the kind of leap AM has taken. When was the last time a team improved this much between two seasons under same regulations? And how good is Dan Fallows?

2020 - Pink Mercedes
2023 - Green Red Bull

They took the easiest approach - copy the best and have moderate success.

[Senna4Ever]

I have suggested that very same ideology here on this forum to move the F1 department to the U.K. and I get that it has been tried before and it didn't work. (Barnard with the GTO).

(all I do is throw my hands up in the air............)

to my knowledge Ferrari did this twice with Barnard: once in the late 80ies (paid him away from McLaren) (build him a developmentcenter called Guildford Technical Office (GTO)) and then again in the mid 90ies (again new company Ferrari Design and Development center in Shalford, Surrey, the 94 Hockenheim winner was a Barnard car). But the success was ... we know all.
Todt was the man back then who brought everything together again in '96 where then Brawn and Bryne took over in Maranello. The rest is history.

the most memorable from the Ferrari - Barnard relationship was the sem-automatic gear

2020 - Pink Mercedes
2023 - Green Red Bull

They took the easiest approach - copy the best and have moderate success.

First yes because it was a Pink Mercedes with Mercedes PU etc. in it ... easy
but now the interesting thing you are playing down so easy: its a RB Copy designed for a exclusive HONDA PU that seems working not that bad with a completely different Mercedes PU an back (different engine layout, cooling, suspension geo, etc. etc.) ...

but as it seems all so easy ... your application in Maranello is welcome

[brucewayne]

to my knowledge Ferrari did this twice with Barnard: once in the late 80ies (paid him away from McLaren) (build him a developmentcenter called Guildford Technical Office (GTO)) and then again in the mid 90ies (again new company Ferrari Design and Development Entwicklungszentrum in Shalford, Surrey, the 94 Hockenheim winner was a Barnard car). But the success was ... we know all. Todt was the man back then who brought everything together again in '96 where then Brawn and Bryne took over in Maranello. The rest is history.

Maybe we need to throw money to the best engineers, I don’t know. We are already facing a penalty with one of our drivers, and it’s only the second race. Two clear weaknesses which we weren’t able to solve for the first race, we looked unprepared and overwhelmed. What were they doing last year, after they decided to concentrate for 2023?

[tifosi1993]

so as rational guys here, should we give up our hopes from this year? actually i gave up but i need to find some particles of a hope

We shouldn't be focusing on the titles right now. The focus should be on solving the reliability and tyre wear issues. Both can be fixed quickly.

I still think that the SF23 is a very good car and it will win more races than the F1-75. Hopefully, starting from Jeddah, we will see some massive improvements. Ferrari must bring the new front and rear wings there.

[tifosi1993]

I'm stunned the kind of leap AM has taken. When was the last time a team improved this much between two seasons under same regulations? And how good is Dan Fallows?

Budget cap + more time on the wind tunnel + recent hires from the Red Bull.

Plus Charles's retirement, yet another sunday driver from Carlos and Mercedes woes made them look good.

[brucewayne]

We shouldn't be focusing on the titles right now. The focus should be on solving the reliability and tyre wear issues. Both can be fixed quickly.

I still think that the SF23 is a very good car and it will win more races than the F1-75. Hopefully, starting from Jeddah, we will see some massive improvements. Ferrari must bring the new front and rear wings there.

It seems we will already have the first penalty for Charles in Jeddah. It’s a disgrace and shame. Brutal. If we continue like this, we won’t be in the Top 3 in the WCC.

[Greig]

Why will Charles have a penalty?

[brucewayne]

Why will Charles have a penalty?

No confirmation, but according to following source it was a battery pack problem. My understanding is that it’s the part they changed before the race. Maybe they can still use the first pack.

https://t.co/dqPd4WIPFV

[patrese86]

Taking small positives (because what else can we do!) at least there was no mistakes on the wall, good double stack and the car can defend in a straight line even against DRS.

I just don't see how we solve the tyre issue when we had the whole winter to solve a problem we knew a lot about and clearly didn't prioritise or did think we solved because the simulation said we did when in reality it didn't correlate to what happened on track.