SF23 Discussion Thread

[PURE PASSION]

Sadly its become hopeless!! It looks like we luck (big time) the personality's (technicians) that can get us out of this situation.
And now ,if we accept that Vasseur is a good TP and that Elkann has given him a white check and total freedom to do whatever he whats , NOW nobody whants to come !!! All this bad management and bad behavior towards the technicians ,has made Ferrari the rumor of a toxic environment and none trust us anymore !!!! From the most prestigious company in the grid ,we've bacome a pariah !!!!! People gladly prefer to work for Aston Martin then us !!!!!
And with all this we see the team going from bad to worse!!!! Its extraordinary how many things can this team screw up in a racing week end !!! Bad Q set-up /performance , driver accidents , bad strategy awful race performance, awful tire management , bad pit stops !!! This is Ferrari agenda for a racing weekend, they pick only from this list and its like thay have an interrnal bet of how many from all this they can achieve in a single weekend !!!!!
From now on its more then a miracle that can make us be truly competitive again . For sure no upgrade ( only we call upgrade what we bring to the track.Its more like downgrade) can solve our problems even a little bit , and the way i see it will last for many many years !!!!
I personally trying to get F1 out of my head so to stop completely bother about the sport in general. And this is very difficult bacause its part of my life from for ever !!!!
This team has hurt us BIG TIME !!!!!

[JPZ]

Ferrari: the new fund was worth a tenth but the real problem is the mini operating window which makes the SF-23 unpredictable. A new development direction in Barcelona, ​​because we need to understand as soon as possible if everything needs to be redone.

@Formu1a.uno

Great....

[WS6TransAm01]

Ferrari: the new fund was worth a tenth but the real problem is the mini operating window which makes the SF-23 unpredictable. A new development direction in Barcelona, ​​because we need to understand as soon as possible if everything needs to be redone.

@Formu1a.uno

15 years on and they still "need to understand" their design.

We understand it, it's garbage. Hire people with talent, instead Ferrari engineers seem to come to the factory on the short bus.

[tpe]

RB have probably found a loop hole in the rules which FIA cannot see. Maybe something like the double diffuser they developed when Vettel drove for them.

You are looking at the wrong place. The diffusers (double, or blown) where used to increase the total downforce. RB is a beast on that front, yes, but their speed in the straights is out of this world. And no, it cannot be legal. At best is a gray area.

[tpe]

15 years on and they still "need to understand" their design.

We understand it, it's garbage. Hire people with talent, instead Ferrari engineers seem to come to the factory on the short bus.

They should have hire the RB or Mercedes engineers that make the tyre-related mathematical models. Then, theh can build on them.
Mind you, I still think that Simon Resta would be better for the job or TD.

[racingbradley]

IF Charles had not hit the wall in quali he would have probably got pole then we would not be lamenting so much. True that pole doesn't bring home points but it's a positive. I feel for the team as I am sure everyone is working to get to the bottom of our problems.
We all know that criticism does not help anyone, the Italian media do enough of that.

[paolo lalli]

Pole does not win races.The ferrari is no where like mercedes the tune we must investigate will soon be a chart topper.

[Cavallino]

Ferrari: the new fund was worth a tenth but the real problem is the mini operating window which makes the SF-23 unpredictable. A new development direction in Barcelona, ​​because we need to understand as soon as possible if everything needs to be redone.

@Formu1a.uno

I said exactly this in the race thread (amongst some other gold i also posted), but no one notices, especially in that thread, it's just a wasteland of Ferrari hate and undeserved Max praise.

[Cavallino]

You are looking at the wrong place. The diffusers (double, or blown) where used to increase the total downforce. RB is a beast on that front, yes, but their speed in the straights is out of this world. And no, it cannot be legal. At best is a gray area.

+1

How is having a wing that is stiff enough to pass the test, but then flexes in practice ANY DIFFERENT, from having fuel flow that passes the sensor, but actually flow more in practice.

If you change the test and we start to fail, fine.

[Cavallino]

You are looking at the wrong place. The diffusers (double, or blown) where used to increase the total downforce. RB is a beast on that front, yes, but their speed in the straights is out of this world. And no, it cannot be legal. At best is a gray area.

+1

How is having a wing that is stiff enough to pass the test, but then flexes in practice ANY DIFFERENT, from having fuel flow that passes the sensor, but actually flow more in practice.

If you change the test and we start to fail, fine.

[tifosi1993]

The question is quite simple, have Ferrari found answers to their current tyre woes? Or are still in the process of "understanding"?

We have completed 5 race weekends in 5 different tracks, so they have access to a huge amount of data. If Ferrari knows the issue, then the upcoming upgrades should deliver a solid step forward. If not, then the coming upgrades are nothing but "throw things at the wall and see what sticks".

The upcoming races are litmus tests for Ferrari. Those upgrades will either make our season or completely break it.

[tifosi1993]

IF Charles had not hit the wall in quali he would have probably got pole then we would not be lamenting so much. True that pole doesn't bring home points but it's a positive. I feel for the team as I am sure everyone is working to get to the bottom of our problems.
We all know that criticism does not help anyone, the Italian media do enough of that.

Had Charles been on pole, the race would've been still difficult. During the race day, the track was 20C cooler than qualifying. And the rain also washed up all the rubbers that were laid down during practices and qualifying.

The track situation was completely different, which underlines what Charles said post race, the car has a very narrow operating window and doesn't response well to change in conditions. It was also clearly evident during the race, Charles's onboard looked pretty bad, he had to deal with random oversteer and understeer in high speed corners throughout the race. And the car looked very cumbersome in high speed, so much so that even the Haas was pulling away in the sector 1.

[PURE PASSION]

The question is quite simple, have Ferrari found answers to their current tyre woes? Or are still in the process of "understanding"?

We have completed 5 race weekends in 5 different tracks, so they have access to a huge amount of data. If Ferrari knows the issue, then the upcoming upgrades should deliver a solid step forward. If not, then the coming upgrades are nothing but "throw things at the wall and see what sticks".

The upcoming races are litmus tests for Ferrari. Those upgrades will either make our season or completely break it.

Τhe results speak form themselves!!! We are DEFINITELY still "understanding" and we have NO CLUE what is wrong ,to fix it. And even IF they eventually figure it out , they still couldn't find a proper solution to fix it and be trully competitive. It proven by now that we dont have the personel to compete with the likes of RB ,Merc and now AM !!!! Whenever they come up with a design that was competitve at the start ,it must have been by accident .And this exlpain the fact that after the 1st races they lost their way of development and fall dehind the competition. THIS is truly the sad truth. We will be coepmpetitive again ,IF/WHEN new technicians/designers come and proved to be on par with Newey /Fallows etc. And since we hear that we are being rejected left and right (since we are not considerd a desired team any more) it will take many MANY years !!!!!

[tifosi1993]

Τhe results speak form themselves!!! We are DEFINITELY still "understanding" and we have NO CLUE what is wrong ,to fix it. And even IF they eventually figure it out , they still couldn't find a proper solution to fix it and be trully competitive. It proven by now that we dont have the personel to compete with the likes of RB ,Merc and now AM !!!! Whenever they come up with a design that was competitve at the start ,it must have been by accident .And this exlpain the fact that after the 1st races they lost their way of development and fall dehind the competition. THIS is truly the sad truth. We will be coepmpetitive again ,IF/WHEN new technicians/designers come and proved to be on par with Newey /Fallows etc. And since we hear that we are being rejected left and right (since we are not considerd a desired team any more) it will take many MANY years !!!!!

Agreed. We still don't have any TD, so the technical department is pretty much operating like a ship with no captain.

Also, I don't understand, this is what Jock Clear said about the new floor:

We put it on one car [that of Sainz] on Friday and we were quite comfortable that it was doing as expected, so both cars migrated to it in the afternoon. Both drivers are much more comfortable with the car through the medium and high-speed and maybe what happened with Charles’s accident [in qualifying] was testament to that. He was really going for it in those high-speed 4-5-6 curves.

“With the new aero package over the winter we’ve taken a while to find the set-up and we know we made some progress in Australia and big progress in Azerbaijan. This floor contributes again to getting the car in a better window.

So what happened in Miami? Why the sector 1, which has all the medium-high speed corners of this track, was our worst sector during the race? Why the "progress" that's been made in Australia and Baku didn't "manifest" in Miami?

Also Charles crashed because he was really going for it!? Comical.

Both drivers were vociferous about the car balance after the race, particularly in high speed corners. Charles was pretty much perplexed of SF23's struggle in the S1. But here, Clear is saying the complete opposite of what the drivers were saying! I don't know what is going on here.

[tifosi1993]

This is the best sector times of the Miami GP during the race



So the car wasn't strong anywhere. Atleast in Baku, the car was very strong in the twisty-aero demanding middle sector. But in Miami, the car struggled everywhere.

[Cavallino]

Agreed. We still don't have any TD, so the technical department is pretty much operating like a ship with no captain.

Also, I don't understand, this is what Jock Clear said about the new floor:



So what happened in Miami? Why the sector 1, which has all the medium-high speed corners of this track, was our worst sector during the race? Why the "progress" that's been made in Australia and Baku didn't "manifest" in Miami?

Also Charles crashed because he was really going for it!? Comical.

Both drivers were vociferous about the car balance after the race, particularly in high speed corners. Charles was pretty much perplexed of SF23's struggle in the S1. But here, Clear is saying the complete opposite of what the drivers were saying! I don't know what is going on here.

Based upon what I've learned from this forum, since Jock Clear isn't Italian, he therefore MUST know what he's talking about.

[Cavallino]

Based upon what I've learned from this forum, since Jock Clear isn't Italian, he therefore MUST know what he's talking about.

for the record, I actually like Jock, and I'm happy he moved over to Leclerc

[TTRSMAD]

The problem with the SF-23 is that the floor is not working like it should at the height they are running it. Since TD 39 and the fact that Ferrari cannot bend the floor, they don't generate enough downforce from it.

I have the feeling Red Bull built the car in a way that under load the car squats to simulate the floor bending and keep the floor at the perfect height. Don't forget they have a lot of experience with how things flex under load like when they had car

rake and flexi rear wing. At the same time they are using the anti squats once the car is full of fuel to keep the car in the same height than in qualifying. How else are they able to run almost the whole race without changing tires?

[Cavallino]

Agreed. We still don't have any TD, so the technical department is pretty much operating like a ship with no captain.

Also, I don't understand, this is what Jock Clear said about the new floor:



So what happened in Miami? Why the sector 1, which has all the medium-high speed corners of this track, was our worst sector during the race? Why the "progress" that's been made in Australia and Baku didn't "manifest" in Miami?

Also Charles crashed because he was really going for it!? Comical.

Both drivers were vociferous about the car balance after the race, particularly in high speed corners. Charles was pretty much perplexed of SF23's struggle in the S1. But here, Clear is saying the complete opposite of what the drivers were saying! I don't know what is going on here.

but to actually contribute to a discussion and not produce useless noise like 80% of this forum I'll say post some gold that will yet again go unnoticed...

I agree with you, I don't understand those comments either. I think the small window isn't anything to do with aerodynamics. The car is fast over 1 lap, even if it's impossible to drive. Yes, even when it's fast it's still draggy down the straights in comparison to the Red Bull. But if it was terrible aero, the car wouldn't be quick in one lap or in race pace.

Because you also have to believe, if they COULD set the car up with a more race oriented setup, and sacrifice qualifying they would.

So that must lead one to believe that the problem is the all tyre degradation, which is leads to the poor race pace. So it has to be the ground clearance / suspension. It's got to be that suspension. And that must be where the Red Bull trick is.

I have a theory that they're doing something similar to what Merc was doing during the old regulations, and getting the car to "squat" more under load, get the car closer to the ground, without purposing, and producing the magnificent sparks SKY F1 marvels at so much. Which is also why when we our floor was able to flex we were much more competitive. I think you have to do the same thing, but with suspension.

[Cavallino]

The problem with the SF-23 is that the floor is not working like it should at the height they are running it. Since TD 39 and the fact that Ferrari cannot bend the floor, they don't generate enough downforce from it.

I have the feeling Red Bull built the car in a way that under load the car squats to simulate the floor bending and keep the floor at the perfect height. Don't forget they have a lot of experience with how things flex under load like when they had car

rake and flexi rear wing. At the same time they are using the anti squats once the car is full of fuel to keep the car in the same height than in qualifying. How else are they able to run almost the whole race without changing tires?

HOLY SMOKES !! We independently came to that same conclusion. If I wasn't too busy posting nonesence I could have gotten it posted first. Damn!!

But Yes, I've seen your other posts before, and they're good too.

[TTRSMAD]

Thanks man

[Cavallino]

yes, and i said this recently on another thread, how is having a wing that doesn't flex enough to fail a given test, but flexes just as much or more in practice, ANY DIFFERENT from having that is slow enough not to trigger a sensor when tested, but flows more in practice.

It isn't. what they're doing is at best a gray area, and i would have no sympathy if it was banned tomorrow.

The FIA by giving Toto and Hamilton what they wanted, have made such that only one concept in F1 can work now, and put every other team on the back foot. They banned Ferrari's interpretation of a trick to get the car to the ground, and they gave Red Bull a huge lead in this formula in the process.

[tpe]

It must be the opposite.
RB probably lowers the car in the corners (but without having the skid block touching the ground) and raise it in the straights.
Lower car means higher drag, right?

[FerrariF60]

yes, and i said this recently on another thread, how is having a wing that doesn't flex enough to fail a given test, but flexes just as much or more in practice, ANY DIFFERENT from having that is slow enough not to trigger a sensor when tested, but flows more in practice.

It isn't. what they're doing is at best a gray area, and i would have no sympathy if it was banned tomorrow.

The FIA by giving Toto and Hamilton what they wanted, have made such that only one concept in F1 can work now, and put every other team on the back foot. They banned Ferrari's interpretation of a trick to get the car to the ground, and they gave Red Bull a huge lead in this formula in the process.

this whole thing started with Merc NOT wanting to raise their car to avoid porpoising; because obviously they would lose performace. So they set their car low, bouncing like a Kagoroo with Hamilton playing the drama with having a sore back and not able to get out of the car, which i get it....all that bouncing can't be good for your body.

but merc and Co. held this card to the FIA, possible threatenign to quit F1....so then then FIA had no choice but to introduce the TD 39 which in turn hurt us BIG TIME....adn favored Red bull 100%

that is why there is now ONLY one team running away with it and 9 others scrambling to get on top and challenge them

[FerrariF60]

It must be the opposite.
RB probably lowers the car in the corners (but without having the skid block touching the ground) and raise it in the straights.
Lower car means higher drag, right?

i think somehow, on the straights, especially when they open up the DRS, they must stall the rear wing/beam wing and/or diffuser hence why they get an immense straight line/top speed

[Cavallino]

this whole thing started with Merc NOT wanting to raise their car to avoid porpoising; because obviously they would lose performace. So they set their car low, bouncing like a Kagoroo with Hamilton playing the drama with having a sore back and not able to get out of the car, which i get it....all that bouncing can't be good for your body.

but merc and Co. held this card to the FIA, possible threatenign to quit F1....so then then FIA had no choice but to introduce the TD 39 which in turn hurt us BIG TIME....adn favored Red bull 100%

that is why there is now ONLY one team running away with it and 9 others scrambling to get on top and challenge them

pretty much spot on, and I'll say this, I don't fault Ferrari for taking a risk with the design. I'd rather try to design something risky, and have that risk not pan out such that I'm now 4th place, and then get all that extra development time to fix it. But it means you have to sacrifice a year, and you have to stick with it.

[Cavallino]

i think somehow, on the straights, especially when they open up the DRS, they must stall the rear wing/beam wing and/or diffuser hence why they get an immense straight line/top speed

and i think they must have started rolling this out in Canada last year when Max started to really get comfortable with the car.

The good news, is something like this, if Ferrari can bring a suspension that does something even close to this, and get the car to the ride heights the aerodynamic parts were simulated with, it should bring BIG gains. You're not talking about a couple tenths from a new floor. You're talking .5+ per lap in race pace.

[Cavallino]

It must be the opposite.
RB probably lowers the car in the corners (but without having the skid block touching the ground) and raise it in the straights.
Lower car means higher drag, right?

you're logic is not flawed, but we're also talking about a car in the Red Bull that defies all logic, in that normally the car with less drag, fast down the straights, has MORE tyre wear.

I think the collapsing suspension, get the car closer to the ground, which creates the stalling, and those factors exceed any increase in drag. Don't forget their efficient DRS trick either.

[ntukza]

Which Sunday?

2028

[ntukza]

Question: why have a collapsing suspension? Why not build the car at that height from the beginning?