SF23 Discussion Thread

[jgonzalesm6]

i said it before and im saying it again. the enforcement of TD039 midseason was a scandal. FIA cancelled our car's concept overnight. you should not be able to intervene and cancel a team's concept when 2 years of development and tenths of millions were poured into it. especially when it was not illegal. we were managing porpoising and the drivers could get along with it. our car was designed to run as lower to the ground as possible and they destroyed it. at least they should do what they did with DAS, let the season end and then enforce it.

TD039 was to help Mercedes.....since they couldn't fix it themselves.......to screw everyone else. Ferrari suffered from it. RedBull didn't.

The FIA is in bed Mercedes for those that didn't know that already.

[subfire91]

very interesting article that sums up the basic issue of the car:

https://scuderiafans.com/f1-sf-23-do...art-from-zero/

The commitment is commendable and is not equal to the result, because the SF-23 that took to the track in Jeddah was not the same one that had been planned at home: in the tunnel and in the simulator, the SF-23 car can afford to travel with minimal ground clearance which is not yet possible on the track.

[ferrari1.8t]

very interesting article that sums up the basic issue of the car:

https://scuderiafans.com/f1-sf-23-do...art-from-zero/

Very good article…it highlights what has likely been our Achilles heel for the last 15+ years. The banning of testing has hurt Ferrari greatly, and they have never recovered from it. Every year we hear the same thing “correlation issues”, and it’s no different this year. Now we are stuck wasting FP 1, 2 and 3 testing to find where the issues are.

It seems Ferrari truly believe they have a fast and competitive race car. They are just dumbfounded on how to unlock its potential.

[FerrariF60]

Very good article…it highlights what has likely been our Achilles heel for the last 15+ years. The banning of testing has hurt Ferrari greatly, and they have never recovered from it. Every year we hear the same thing “correlation issues”, and it’s no different this year. Now we are stuck wasting FP 1, 2 and 3 testing to find where the issues are.

It seems Ferrari truly believe they have a fast and competitive race car. They are just dumbfounded on how to unlock its potential.

To some extent it may be true that real track testing has hurt Ferrari greatly since, well 2008; but frankly Merc are NOT much better either this year and last year. Their crap zero pod design hasn’t given them the true results they were hoping for, as they too claim that their wind tunnel and CFD data was supposed to be a really good super fast car with loads of DF…etc And in reality their car with their concept isn’t that much better then ours. Hence why they are now more inclined to copy red bull concept.

Time will tell if Ferrari will stick to their guns or copy red bull as well for 2024.

[tpe]

Something about the TD39 which appeared to scupper any hope we had in 2022, along with reliability and not being able to use full power, has completely undone the good points on the F1-75 and we are struggling to get that performance back. We have to accept that Red Bull is likely to run away with the championship this year unless there is something about their car which is outside the rules and it gets penailsed the same way that Ferrari have been penalised in every recent season, when they have been in the same position and able to win! I smell many rats!

It will be called "innovative" interpretation.

[tpe]

The way I see the situation is this.
Ferrari before the start of the season was saying that the new car is 1sec faster than the old one. During testing we learned that the new Pirelli tyres are between 0.5 and 1 sec faster than the old ones. So Ferrari gain 0.5 at worse from the tires alone. In reality, the car is SLOWER.

So, something is awfully wrong here. Either they talk BS then they say that their numbers are great, or their tools (cfd/wind tunnel/stimulator) are basically crap. And this has nothing to do with the tests. I mean, 15 years later they are used to it. Their numbers are wrong, their calculations are wrong and the need to start from clean sheet with new,young people.

Since the simulator needs real data to react, I am almost convinced that they are completely lost and they don't know what to do.
Of course, since the team is part of the company and not a separate entity, they have to feed us with B.S. in order to keep the markets calm etc.

I hate to say it, but Ferarri in 2022 was the Williams of 2014/2015.
A very long period of dark days is ahead of us.

[subfire91]

Very good article…it highlights what has likely been our Achilles heel for the last 15+ years. The banning of testing has hurt Ferrari greatly, and they have never recovered from it. Every year we hear the same thing “correlation issues”, and it’s no different this year. Now we are stuck wasting FP 1, 2 and 3 testing to find where the issues are.

It seems Ferrari truly believe they have a fast and competitive race car. They are just dumbfounded on how to unlock its potential.

it puzzles me... the simulator is well...a simulator, software AI and formulas. But the wind tunnel ? there its the actual car. They are missing something it just may be a needle in a haystack they are trying to find.

[JacKy]

Simple fact : you can’t close 1.5 second gap by settings.

So ? Change the concept. Don’t waste a single penny to useless car.

[paolo lalli]

Screw the FIA those misfits who make it up as they go along,they are as useful as a back pocket in a pair of underpants, as for mercedes and there relationship with the FIA is toothless and moving foward now lacks punch.Vassuer won't cow down to the FIA he is French and stubborn and will dig in with issues.Red bull are the bench mark and those twits called The FIA better get there lame heads around it and fast.Toto you can't win this one no chance.

[RossTheBoss]

To some extent it may be true that real track testing has hurt Ferrari greatly since, well 2008; but frankly Merc are NOT much better either this year and last year. Their crap zero pod design hasn’t given them the true results they were hoping for, as they too claim that their wind tunnel and CFD data was supposed to be a really good super fast car with loads of DF…etc And in reality their car with their concept isn’t that much better then ours. Hence why they are now more inclined to copy red bull concept.

Time will tell if Ferrari will stick to their guns or copy red bull as well for 2024.

This, this, this.

When testing got banned to the absurd few days it is now, F1 became a **** show. When a new rules package comes out there's one team that hits the jackpot with an advantage that puts them so far ahead of everybody, it takes years for others to catch up.

Nothing beats real track testing and the English teams hated that Ferrari could test year round at their private tracks. Ferrari didn't build their dominance in the 2000'son a new rules package. They built it on hard work testing at their tracks. After private testing was banned, Ferrari was never the same team. They've had to deal with crap shoot rule packages, and they turned up snake eyes in 09', 14', and now 22'. It hurt Renault and McLaren too.

Ferrari let themselves get bullied by the FIA on testing and now the budget, and they other teams should grow a set and tell the FIA to **** off, or they'll withdraw from F1.

[brucewayne]

This, this, this.

When testing got banned to the absurd few days it is now, F1 became a **** show. When a new rules package comes out there's one team that hits the jackpot with an advantage that puts them so far ahead of everybody, it takes years for others to catch up.

Nothing beats real track testing and the English teams hated that Ferrari could test year round at their private tracks. Ferrari didn't build their dominance in the 2000'son a new rules package. They built it on hard work testing at their tracks. After private testing was banned, Ferrari was never the same team. They've had to deal with crap shoot rule packages, and they turned up snake eyes in 09', 14', and now 22'. It hurt Renault and McLaren too.

Ferrari let themselves get bullied by the FIA on testing and now the budget, and they other teams should grow a set and tell the FIA to **** off, or they'll withdraw from F1.

We still had testing days, we still are slow. This doesn’t change anything, we have to adapt.

So it seems that we can’t run as low as it is shown in the simulator, that’s the reason why we can’t see the gaines on the track. So we don’t understand the porpoising topic, at least not without damaging the floor. Something which was solved by RB during the second test in preseason last year. Great.

[Riccardog]

it puzzles me... the simulator is well...a simulator, software AI and formulas. But the wind tunnel ? there its the actual car. They are missing something it just may be a needle in a haystack they are trying to find.

the sad reality is also the wind tunnel is only a mock up of the car size of 60% of the real car, so there too it is not really a true reflection of the car... all these rules are an absolute joke that have basically hamstrung Ferrari above all else.

[brucewayne]

the sad reality is also the wind tunnel is only a mock up of the car size of 60% of the real car, so there too it is not really a true reflection of the car... all these rules are an absolute joke that have basically hamstrung Ferrari above all else.

Still, the wind tunnel is the newest in the paddock, state of the art. No excuses!

[stefa]

after four wasted years

https://twitter.com/FanaticsFerrari/status/1638520277364617217?s=20

[ferrari1.8t]

after four wasted years

https://twitter.com/FanaticsFerrari/status/1638520277364617217?s=20

Makes you wonder, if Binotto and co. knew that TD39 would destroy our car why would they accept it? It has been discussed at length already in the past, however it still is upsetting. Ferrari should have stood against this. We have customer teams that could have backed our stance as well. Ugh

[jgonzalesm6]

Ferrari will follow the RedBull sidepod design for next years car.

[FerrariF60]

Ferrari will follow the RedBull sidepod design for next years car.

well, it may sound promising, but don;t forget we still have to get it right AND on top of that we'll still be on the backfoot as Red bull would have TWO years of experience with this concept already whereas we'd just be getting our feet wet with this WHOLE new concept...

time will tell

[jgonzalesm6]

well, it may sound promising, but don;t forget we still have to get it right AND on top of that we'll still be on the backfoot as Red bull would have TWO years of experience with this concept already whereas we'd just be getting our feet wet with this WHOLE new concept...

time will tell

This years car(Ferrari) is pretty much a write off. P4 in the constructors.

Btw, AMRF1 "copied" the sidepod design of the RB19 albeit Dan Fallows and company(RedBull) were trained by Andrian Newey. They went from 7th last year to a possible 2nd in the constructors in 1 year.

[FerrariF60]

This years car(Ferrari) is pretty much a write off. P4 in the constructors.

Btw, AMRF1 "copied" the sidepod design of the RB19 albeit Dan Fallows and company(RedBull) were trained by Andrian Newey. They went from 7th last year to a possible 2nd in the constructors in 1 year.

yup, you're right about us being 4h this year by teh end of championship as Merc will bring their B-spec car by summer probably (and tehy are already better then us with teh zero crap sidepod) adn they'll be fighting for second with asoton maritin

but if we end up 4th, we'll get more time in the wind tunnel in 2024....not that will make a difference anyway since we seem to have correlation issues anyway...LOL

so yeah, this year is a write off for Ferrari....be nice if AM would have a tad quicker car so ALo would fight for wins....at this point he can only fight for 3rd unless red bull reliability goes to crap

[wisepie]

Another year of being written off is unthinkable but the omens aren't good. It's a wonder that any of us are loyal enough to go through this pain threshold year after year. But we do.

[PURE PASSION]

This years car(Ferrari) is pretty much a write off. P4 in the constructors.

Btw, AMRF1 "copied" the sidepod design of the RB19 albeit Dan Fallows and company(RedBull) were trained by Andrian Newey. They went from 7th last year to a possible 2nd in the constructors in 1 year.

Why do you think that its just "copy the sidepod concept" ??? It nothing about just that. Its more about the floor. As you said Fallows was Newey's"student" so he knows something about that . If we just try to copy the sidepod design we will be tha same awful or worse !!!!

[tpe]

I dont understand you people.
You focus in the past, TD39, ban of tests etc. The issue is very simple. Ferrari lacks procedures and minds.
I mean, the only logical thing to do is to test the car with different clearances from the ground. Especially after last year. Obviously, they didn't.

You suffer from porpoising and instead of focusing on this, you talk b.s..
You destroy your tires and only know you (as rumours say) assign an engineer (only one?) to tires.

Obviously, they were caught off guard with the tires, that's for sure. And instead of getting FIAT/Stellantis have a talk with Pirelli, you let Pirelli to run the show along with Red Bull!

Yoy have the largest a mount of wind tunnel time (>2020) and instead of coming with a rocket ship you present a car that is based on a trick!

The team is flawed and needs a deep restructure.
I am not convinced that Vasseur will do the job, although drivers rate him very highly.

In any case, it's not just 2023. We will have the same rules for at least 6 more years. No way to catch RB and then AM.

[subfire91]

I dont understand you people.
You focus in the past, TD39, ban of tests etc. The issue is very simple. Ferrari lacks procedures and minds.
I mean, the only logical thing to do is to test the car with different clearances from the ground. Especially after last year. Obviously, they didn't.

You suffer from porpoising and instead of focusing on this, you talk b.s..
You destroy your tires and only know you (as rumours say) assign an engineer (only one?) to tires.

Obviously, they were caught off guard with the tires, that's for sure. And instead of getting FIAT/Stellantis have a talk with Pirelli, you let Pirelli to run the show along with Red Bull!

Yoy have the largest a mount of wind tunnel time (>2020) and instead of coming with a rocket ship you present a car that is based on a trick!

The team is flawed and needs a deep restructure.
I am not convinced that Vasseur will do the job, although drivers rate him very highly.

In any case, it's not just 2023. We will have the same rules for at least 6 more years. No way to catch RB and then AM.

we need to see the big picture here and stop directing so much hate to the team. Ferrari did a good job of developing a championship contender car for 2022. it was fast and it was winning races.

90% percent of the blame is to FIA. They cancelled our concept overnight wasting the team's 4 year development plan and hundreds of millions of Ferrari $.

Our car was meant to be run as low as possible for the concept to work. We were managing porpoising and our drivers were good with it, it wasnt affecting them nor the car or performance. And they cancelled us simple as that.

It was meant to be a great year... RB and Ferrari were exchanging "blows" and wins and it we were all set for a thriller of a year. They introduced TD039 and they achieved what ??? from the expected thriller they set RB to break the record of wins in a calendar year...even more dominant that Mercs. They destroyed the sport. Sadly nothing can be done before 2026. Its not easy to produce a championship contender car. It took almost 4 years to design and produce that car do you think is easy to redesign in now with the budget cap in place ?

The only blame to Ferrari is why the didn't protest and resist it when they knew it would destroy them.

[paneristi]

we need to see the big picture here and stop directing so much hate to the team. Ferrari did a good job of developing a championship contender car for 2022. it was fast and it was winning races.

90% percent of the blame is to FIA. They cancelled our concept overnight wasting the team's 4 year development plan and hundreds of millions of Ferrari $.

Our car was meant to be run as low as possible for the concept to work. We were managing porpoising and our drivers were good with it, it wasnt affecting them nor the car or performance. And they cancelled us simple as that.

It was meant to be a great year... RB and Ferrari were exchanging "blows" and wins and it we were all set for a thriller of a year. They introduced TD039 and they achieved what ??? from the expected thriller they set RB to break the record of wins in a calendar year...even more dominant that Mercs. They destroyed the sport. Sadly nothing can be done before 2026. Its not easy to produce a championship contender car. It took almost 4 years to design and produce that car do you think is easy to redesign in now with the budget cap in place ?

The only blame to Ferrari is why the didn't protest and resist it when they knew it would destroy them.

Weak leader brought weak mentality

[samboozik]

we need to see the big picture here and stop directing so much hate to the team. Ferrari did a good job of developing a championship contender car for 2022. it was fast and it was winning races.

90% percent of the blame is to FIA. They cancelled our concept overnight wasting the team's 4 year development plan and hundreds of millions of Ferrari $.

Our car was meant to be run as low as possible for the concept to work. We were managing porpoising and our drivers were good with it, it wasnt affecting them nor the car or performance. And they cancelled us simple as that.

It was meant to be a great year... RB and Ferrari were exchanging "blows" and wins and it we were all set for a thriller of a year. They introduced TD039 and they achieved what ??? from the expected thriller they set RB to break the record of wins in a calendar year...even more dominant that Mercs. They destroyed the sport. Sadly nothing can be done before 2026. Its not easy to produce a championship contender car. It took almost 4 years to design and produce that car do you think is easy to redesign in now with the budget cap in place ?

The only blame to Ferrari is why the didn't protest and resist it when they knew it would destroy them.

Absolutely on point, and that's why the Clown Binotto got the boot.

[stasera]

we need to see the big picture here and stop directing so much hate to the team. Ferrari did a good job of developing a championship contender car for 2022. it was fast and it was winning races.

90% percent of the blame is to FIA. They cancelled our concept overnight wasting the team's 4 year development plan and hundreds of millions of Ferrari $.

Our car was meant to be run as low as possible for the concept to work. We were managing porpoising and our drivers were good with it, it wasnt affecting them nor the car or performance. And they cancelled us simple as that.

It was meant to be a great year... RB and Ferrari were exchanging "blows" and wins and it we were all set for a thriller of a year. They introduced TD039 and they achieved what ??? from the expected thriller they set RB to break the record of wins in a calendar year...even more dominant that Mercs. They destroyed the sport. Sadly nothing can be done before 2026. Its not easy to produce a championship contender car. It took almost 4 years to design and produce that car do you think is easy to redesign in now with the budget cap in place ?

The only blame to Ferrari is why the didn't protest and resist it when they knew it would destroy them.

you explained well, they attacked our concept and pave the way for RB. We could have won at least 2 titles till 2026.

[Aziz]

you explained well, they attacked our concept and pave the way for RB. We could have won at least 2 titles till 2026.

Yeah, but we did nothing to stop TD39 to be implemented.
That's the worst thing

[paneristi]

Binotto said nothing against it. He started working 2023 cars by mid 2022 so technically we should be ok, yet the cars are still lame on track.

[wisepie]

we need to see the big picture here and stop directing so much hate to the team. Ferrari did a good job of developing a championship contender car for 2022. it was fast and it was winning races.

90% percent of the blame is to FIA. They cancelled our concept overnight wasting the team's 4 year development plan and hundreds of millions of Ferrari $.

Our car was meant to be run as low as possible for the concept to work. We were managing porpoising and our drivers were good with it, it wasnt affecting them nor the car or performance. And they cancelled us simple as that.

It was meant to be a great year... RB and Ferrari were exchanging "blows" and wins and it we were all set for a thriller of a year. They introduced TD039 and they achieved what ??? from the expected thriller they set RB to break the record of wins in a calendar year...even more dominant that Mercs. They destroyed the sport. Sadly nothing can be done before 2026. Its not easy to produce a championship contender car. It took almost 4 years to design and produce that car do you think is easy to redesign in now with the budget cap in place ?

The only blame to Ferrari is why the didn't protest and resist it when they knew it would destroy them.

You hit the nail on the head there, Binotto may have been a technical wizard in producing the F1-75 which required a low ride height and TD39 undid all of its capabilities. Add in the poor reliability, not being able to use full power and the strategy mistakes, no wonder we fell apart after the summer break. But Binotto just let it rest when he should have made big noise to the FIA. Did he already know he was on the way out at season's end and therefore thought it would serve Ferrari right that the SF23 wasn't going to be as competitive? There's also this year's Red Bull rear wing/DRS which needs looking at, is it doing something which isn't strictly within the rules? Come on Fred, get your finger out!

[Tony]

So it seems Gino Rosato was identified as one of the leakers at Ferrari. He's no longer in the team, hopefully the leaks will stop now.