Spa-Francorchamps GP Race thread

[stefa]

Someone need to beat hell out of him and teach this spoiled little brat a lesson in life!

[Stormy]

Someone need to beat hell out of him and teach this spoiled little brat a lesson in life!

Unfortunately they like him like that. With this attitude he is commercially beneficial.

[stefa]

Unfortunately they like him like that. With this attitude he is commercially beneficial.

Until he hurts someone else or himself!

[Black Adder]

And of course the great Gary Anderson sees it totally differently. Max did nothing wrong?

http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...-nothing-wrong

[Sakae]

Someone (very smart guy) said the other day, instead getting into subjective arguments, show me, when, if ever in whole track history, 3 cars went through T1 without crashing into each other. It wasn't done, and it was not going to happen last race either. As JV said, if you are going on inside into tight turn, you are never going to make it, without taking someone with you, all moaning about Vettel's "mistake" notwithstanding.

As discussed n-times already on several threads, and by several commentators, there is nothing much new to add.

1. Verstappen had no business trying to make the T1 on the inside while two cars were ahead of him. Focus should be on his inexperience, nevermind childish and unsafe behavior later on.
2. Vettel, being ahead of all three drivers, did his job as any racer worth his salt would do, and followed his racing line while race was on.
3. Racers aren't expected to give up the racing positions they earned, unless your name is Vettel - so much I learned (on the internet) last weekend.
4. FiA has a lot of explaining to do in a person of Whiting about their performance in Spa.
5. It is debatable whether Vettel hit Kimi, or he was hit by a car that had no business being there in the first place, because there was a car width space on Vettel's inside.


Ed. Strange thing happen to me, as I have tried to post such (personal) opinion on motorsport.com site, and it was refused. I was notified that I was trying to post malformed comment. There we go; as soon as someone does not agrees with mainstream hysterical screaming, then one get silenced.

[killer]

Ed. Strange thing happen to me, as I have tried to post such (personal) opinion on motorsport.com site, and it was refused. I was notified that I was trying to post malformed comment. There we go; as soon as someone does not agrees with mainstream hysterical screaming, then one get silenced.

Did they define "malformed" further? Maybe it had to do with syntax or characters their system does not allow.

[Sakae]

Did they define "malformed" further? Maybe it had to do with syntax or characters their system does not allow.

No, they haven't, to give you a short answer. In broader context, while I am not regular there, occassionally when I write something, overwhelmingly I find myself isolated with my take on various events. In some cases it got really rough, especially from Australian side (a lot of expletives on my head), which makes me wonder if I got on some kind of a black list. Admittedly I got kicked out of the autosport forum, because my posts made (alledgedly) a lot of people mad.

[Brembo]

[QUOTE=Sakae;921540]




3. Racers aren't expected to give up the racing positions they earned, unless your name is Vettel - so much I learned (on the internet) last weekend.

Unless the driver was " Rubenized" with "Let him pass! " I don"t see Vettel falling into that catagory now or in the future . Todt the midjet & his radio are gone forever! Now teamates can race each other for a real win. Just ask Lewis !

[Sakae]

Admittedly I am not sure whether my reading of your input is accurate, but if you are suggesting that (i) Nico was never asked to let Lewis through, or (ii) there is no management bias between those to drivers, than I am out, because I have to disagree in most strenuous terms.

That incident you are referring to, came as a surprise to Michael, as to Baricello. That's life for you. Not everything is perfect.

[Greig]

I personally think Max did nothing too much wrong at turn 1, he went for a gap that was there, just 3 into 1 does not go. Vettel could have given more room.

What Max did later to Kimi is the problem and he should be given no further chances to repeat such antics.

[Sakae]

Some (well educated) former racers in open wheel cars suggested, that while Max did to violated any FiA's rules, but he had definitely violated common sense rule. Covering gap is great, but to fit 3 cars into T1 unfortunately is asking for trouble. There was no way to come out of that situation without someone, if not all three, getting badly hurt. Once he will have more experience, he will not try to fit square peg into round hole.
It is believed, that FiA didn't go after Vettel, because despite media and fans hysteria, they were well aware who was an instigator of that mess. Max was in no position to wrap his car around apex, as he carried too much speed. He would have gravitated towards outer track limits, and who knows how both Ferrari would have dealt with it, but one thing is certain, they would not have continued without loosing something (time, tires having flat spot, body parts - name it). I wonder also if some other name was driving the car No.5, whether we would get the same response in media and fans.

[Hornet]

IMO, the most dangerous thing about Max at the moment is his late defensive move to block an overtaking attempt. While it may not be easy to define how late is too late, I think the danger is very clear. He waits till a driver commits before making his move to block and force the driver to slow down.

This is done at the fastest part of the track where DRS overtaking is done, any contact will be catastrophic.

FIA needs to find a way to stop such tactic.

[Sakae]

Absolutely. Challenge with him right now is, that everyone around him is telling him, that he hasn't done anything wrong. Chances are that he will not listen to his manager, nor his peers in forthcoming drivers meeting. Like Grosjean, FiA might need to put him on a cooling trip, and if he has to sit a race or two out, that might do it.

[Greig]

Some (well educated) former racers in open wheel cars suggested, that while Max did to violated any FiA's rules, but he had definitely violated common sense rule. Covering gap is great, but to fit 3 cars into T1 unfortunately is asking for trouble. There was no way to come out of that situation without someone, if not all three, getting badly hurt. Once he will have more experience, he will not try to fit square peg into round hole.
It is believed, that FiA didn't go after Vettel, because despite media and fans hysteria, they were well aware who was an instigator of that mess. Max was in no position to wrap his car around apex, as he carried too much speed. He would have gravitated towards outer track limits, and who knows how both Ferrari would have dealt with it, but one thing is certain, they would not have continued without loosing something (time, tires having flat spot, body parts - name it). I wonder also if some other name was driving the car No.5, whether we would get the same response in media and fans.

If Vettel gave more room then all 3 would have got round the corner, not sure Jacques is the best person to tell anyone how to drive after his kamikaze attack on Schumi at Jerez....I am struggling to see how Max had too much speed? he might not have taken an ideal line but he was hardly thundering into the corner out of control.Vettel turned into Kimi and that bump made him contact with Max. All 3 could have made the corner if the guy in the outside (Vettel) did not turn in on them when he was not clear to do so. If Max was not there Vettel would still have hit into Kimi.

[Greig]

IMO, the most dangerous thing about Max at the moment is his late defensive move to block an overtaking attempt. While it may not be easy to define how late is too late, I think the danger is very clear. He waits till a driver commits before making his move to block and force the driver to slow down.

This is done at the fastest part of the track where DRS overtaking is done, any contact will be catastrophic.

FIA needs to find a way to stop such tactic.

+1 this is the main issue with Max, he done it in Hungary and now again in Spa, Kimi is right next time it might be a massive accident.

[Rishu]

I personally think Max did nothing too much wrong at turn 1, he went for a gap that was there, just 3 into 1 does not go. Vettel could have given more room.

What Max did later to Kimi is the problem and he should be given no further chances to repeat such antics.

+1 Turn 1 incident was down to Vettel. Later what Max did at Kemmel straight was stupid & really surprising he got away with it.

[Sakae]

If Vettel gave more room then all 3 would have got round the corner, not sure Jacques is the best person to tell anyone how to drive after his kamikaze attack on Schumi at Jerez....I am struggling to see how Max had too much speed? he might not have taken an ideal line but he was hardly thundering into the corner out of control.Vettel turned into Kimi and that bump made him contact with Max. All 3 could have made the corner if the guy in the outside (Vettel) did not turn in on them when he was not clear to do so. If Max was not there Vettel would still have hit into Kimi.

This is of course supposition, but Kimi had car width of track left for him by Vettel. So much was clear from video evidence, thus all what he had to do is to turn in. One cannot say (unless you hate Vettel), that there would have been collision between them, had Max stayed behind and waited for his turn. With respect to JV, I was discussing the situation with somone else, who, as a lawyer (used to be a racer), these days next to love of F1, he also has some very nasty forensic habits of looking at things like that.

[Greig]

This is of course supposition, but Kimi had car width of track left for him by Vettel. So much was clear from video evidence, thus all what he had to do is to turn in. One cannot say (unless you hate Vettel), that there would have been collision between them, had Max stayed behind and waited for his turn. With respect to JV, I was discussing the situation with somone else, who, as a lawyer (used to be a racer), these days next to love of F1, he also has some very forensic habits of looking at things like that.

Kimi had no room left to him hence the collision. Vettel made the first contact and he should have left more room quite simply. Max should stay behind and wait his turn for what? this is racing not Sunday driving to the shops. I don't need to be a lawyer to see Vettel should have left more room and did not need to cut into Kimi.

[Sakae]

Kimi had no room because Verstappen was crowding him. Vettel, being well ahead of both cars had no exact knowledge what MV was doing. This is where people fail in the analysis. Vettel knew that its only him and Kimi who can go through, and drove accordingly. He ultimately turned into a turn (as he had to), expecting Kimi to drive apex on tight line. So, as written previously, is it Vettel who made contact with Raikonnen, or it was Raikonnen who made contact with Vettel? After race it was easy to comment, but in real time, he had no idea where Verstappen was, or that he would be committed to such move. Verstappen not making the corner on tight curve is an opinion of a guy who used to race with JV, and knows about those things little more than I do.

Maybe we are running in circles. It doesn't matter to me. People can believe whatever they wish, and I am sure that no minds will be changed by arguing on the internet.

[Greig]

Kimi had no room because Verstappen was crowding him. Vettel, being well ahead of both cars had no exact knowledge what MV was doing. This is where people fail in the analysis. Vettel knew that its only him and Kimi who can go through, and drove accordingly. He ultimately turned into a turn (as he had to), expecting Kimi to drive apex on tight line. So, as written previously, is it Vettel who made contact with Raikonnen, or it was Raikonnen who made contact with Vettel? After race it was easy to comment, but in real time, he had no idea where Verstappen was, or that he would be committed to such move. Vesrtappen not making the corner on tight curve is an opinion of a guy who used to race with JV, and knows about those things little more than I do.

Maybe we are running in circles. It doesn't matter to me. People can believe whatever they wish, and I am sure that no minds will be changed by arguing on the internet.

Vettel hit Kimi that is really the end of it. Vettel was not well ahead or he would not have hit Kimi quite obviously. He could have turned in later and still made the corner quite clearly. Just seems like Seb wants to point the finger away from his own mistake.

[FerrariF60]

Vettel hit Kimi that is really the end of it. Vettel was not well ahead or he would not have hit Kimi quite obviously. He could have turned in later and still made the corner quite clearly. Just seems like Seb wants to point the finger away from his own mistake.

but Seb was almost following the same racing line as Rosberg, and Seb ONLY hit Kimi because kimi had to pull a little to the left to avoid kamikaze Mad Max going into turn 1 which also caught Kimi by surprise as to what Max was trying to do; from Seb's point of view he was unable to see what Max was attempting to do into turn one...end of story

[Sakae]

My (almost lost) trust in human race is back. Waterloo man understands that situation very well.

[Black Adder]

I don't agree often with Autosport, but on this one I do (2nd article in a row):

http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...n-in-his-place

But then you read this, and think is this the same Magazine:

http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...-nothing-wrong

[DelMar]

There was more than enough room for a car inside Vettel but Kimi could not turn in as he would because of Max inside:
Spa08_2016_738.jpg

[Sakae]

Vettel confirmed that both cars (Kimi and Max) were in his blind spot. After the race, seeing video recordings, some people play visionaries, full of great ideas, yet all those people who had suggested that Vettel taking a different racing line would have saved a day, can perhaps come up with some kind of a record showing when - if ever - 3 cars abreast were getting through that specific turn unscathed, while on a racing line. So far I could determine, it was never done, and it would not had happened last race either. RB would have travelled on the same vector Kvyat did earlier this year, crossing the track, no worries where red cars would disappear.

[Greig]

but Seb was almost following the same racing line as Rosberg, and Seb ONLY hit Kimi because kimi had to pull a little to the left to avoid kamikaze Mad Max going into turn 1 which also caught Kimi by surprise as to what Max was trying to do; from Seb's point of view he was unable to see what Max was attempting to do into turn one...end of story

But he could see Kimi, or at least expect him to be inside of him. He never left enough room I could understand if he was trying a move against another car to make it as tight as possible, but when it's your own team mate then make really sure you are not going to collide, his mistake and all the blaming of Max is just silly.

[FerrariF60]

But he could see Kimi, or at least expect him to be inside of him. He never left enough room, his mistake and all the blaming of Max is just silly.

NO, he left enough room for kimi; as a matter of fact he left a car width for kimi to go through turn 1, but he wasn't expecting Mad Max to plunge into turn one (three cars into that corner is VERY tight and TOO much to ask for, bad things were always gonna happen) hence WHY kimi could NOT follow the tight turn hugging the apex like he was gonna do and the "room" Seb has givin him... but i guess NO one can argue with you Greig, YOU'RE ALWAYS RIGHT ON THIS FORUM....yeah right

[Greig]

Vettel confirmed that both cars (Kimi and Max) were in his blind spot. After the race, seeing video recordings, some people play visionaries, full of great ideas, yet all those people who had suggested that Vettel taking a different racing line would have saved a day, can perhaps come up with some kind of a record showing when - if ever - 3 cars abreast were getting through that specific turn unscathed, while on a racing line. So far I could determine, it was never done, and it would not had happened last race either. RB would have travelled on the same vector Kvyat did earlier this year, crossing the track, no worries where red cars would disappear.

2 cars would never get round any corner if they all took THE racing line, you adapt to whats around you. Or maybe we can go back to what you previously said and everyone should wait their turn to take the racing line, then we will have no collisions ever......and no racing.

[Greig]

NO, he left enough room for kimi; as a matter of fact he left a car width for kimi to go through turn 1, but he wasn't expecting Mad Max to plunge into turn one (three cars into that corner is VERY tight and TOO much to ask for, bad things were always gonna happen) hence WHY kimi could NOT follow the tight turn hugging the apex like he was gonna do and the "room" Seb has givin him... but i guess NO one can argue with you Greig, YOU'RE ALWAYS RIGHT ON THIS FORUM....yeah right

He hit Kimi, so therefore he never left enough room. There was not a car's width between him and Kimi or they would not have collided. If Seb left a car's width then Kimi could have moved over to the left....

Not quite sure why you have to take a little rant about me having my opinion, how about you calm down a little. I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you post yours.

[Silent Bob]

I wouldn't expect Vettel to leave room for a car that has all 4 wheels off track. It was a stupid move on Max's part and it was always going to cause an accident. He dove down into the inside of a corner, a space that he should have known was going to get smaller as cars turned. How is he not in the wrong? And even if Vettel is not there, then Max is counting on Kimi screwing his own line around the corner so MAx could pull off a low percentage move.