Ferrari: Make F1 like NASCAR and we may walk

[vcs316]

Ferrari says it will not accept racing in a Formula 1 that features dumbed-down engine technology, as the Italian outfit hit out at Bernie Ecclestone and Jean Todt's plans for an independent power unit.

Speaking in Maranello on Monday, at Ferrari's traditional pre-Christmas press briefing, Ferrari president Sergio Marchionne said the Italian outfit would rather walk away from grand prix racing than face rules it did not like.

"Ferrari would find other ways to express its ability to race and to win," said Marchionne.

"It would be a huge shame [if Ferrari left], but Ferrari cannot be put in a corner on its knees and say nothing.

"Now, the rules are written in a way that serves lawyers, who interpret them.

"In November 2014, it was clear that it would be possible to use tokens for power unit development – and this was something that, in a sense, saved Ferrari's season.

"But we need to simplify the rules and create more manageable regulations – where we should not be supported by lawyers, but by engineers, as it was a few years ago."

FIA mandate wrong

Marchionne said he was particularly upset by the FIA's move to hand Ecclestone and Todt a mandate for change, in their bid to overhaul F1.

"It's a choice that we obviously do not share, because we believe that the development of the regulations should be done in a coordinated manner," he said.

"This view is also shared by the Mercedes and Renault. Here we spend hundreds of millions of Euros, so we are talking about decisions that should not be taken lightly.

"The problem is that in trying to create a power unit that is more affordable for smaller teams, we are in a way taking away from those organisations that are able to develop. And that is the reason why we go racing.

"We go to the track to prove to ourselves and to everyone our ability to manage the power unit. If we begin to undermine this advantage, Ferrari has no intention of racing.

"If we make Formula 1 like NASCAR, we would lose the advantage of experience in track solutions, which can then have an impact on production.

"I understand very well the difficulties that smaller teams face, but this is something that FOM has to solve; it is not something Ferrari has to solve."

Veto right

Marchionne also insisted that Ferrari had no choice but to block a plan by the FIA to impose a cost cap on engine prices.

Speaking about Ferrari's long-held rules veto, he said: "I think that in the past it has never been used, but we used it recently because the proposal was out of place.

"The problem of this sport is that the regulator can not impose conditions on the economic management of the team.

"When we are told that we must make the engine and then sell it for two pounds, from the economic point of view, this argument does not stand – because it is going to change the dynamic business that we are managing.

"The economic conditions by which the Ferrari engine is provided to a customer cannot be established by the F1 Commission."

[Nova]

I agree 1000% :xmassmile:

[stefa]

Me too, gazillion %.
F1 is waaaaaay too borring....

[IulianFerrari]

FIA needs to find other solutions. I agree this decision, is not just one, but a few steps over the line. We all have to support a more compact bunch in terms of performance but teams should have the right to develope and ask a "fair" price for both sides on their engine, not just a fraction of the costs. A solution in my opinion is to try and make F1 more attractive to other possible engine suppliers. Having just 4,and with Honda struggling, is the problem. Encouraging others to join(FIA finding solutions for this) is the way to go. Imagine 8 engine suppliers, nobody would depend on the engine of someone else ( except for the bottom 1-2 teams). Everybody will be minding their own business and have just 1 thing on their mind and that is to get better and better.

[fmatiasii]

Well....why not just put up another F1 like organization that caters to the old ways of F1 racing? I'm sure most of the present teams will join in for sure.

[Stormy]

Well....why not just put up another F1 like organization that caters to the old ways of F1 racing? I'm sure most of the present teams will join in for sure.

Nah, they will all use it to sell cars and make rules so they can implement technology into their commercial cars. Now with FIA we have at least more diversity.
And of course i agree with Marchionne about the engine selling cap though. But introducing independent engine supplier might be good. Lesser teams won't depend on the manufacturer.

[TigerKing]

I still think the best way to solve the engine price crisis is for the manufacturers to offer their older V8 engines for the original 2013 price but offer the far superior V6 turbo hybrids at the normal price. That way, Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren and Renault will always have the advantage but the lesser teams will still have the odd chance of winning. This also promotes the customers to buy the V6 if they have the cash but doesn't bankrupt/force them out of the sport if they don't have enough.
Also, this worked many years in the past so why not now?

[abbottcostello]

Nah, they will all use it to sell cars and make rules so they can implement technology into their commercial cars. Now with FIA we have at least more diversity.
And of course i agree with Marchionne about the engine selling cap though. But introducing independent engine supplier might be good. Lesser teams won't depend on the manufacturer.

To be clear, by "independent engine supplier" are you talking about the Indycar twin turbo that Bernie is pushing?

They are talking about an engine that differs completely from the current spec. F1 PU. On top of that it would specifically be unavailable to any team that manufactured its own engine (Ferrari, Merc & now Renault F1, not sure how McLaren would be classified).

Out of the others that have to buy a PU, the only team that is not contracted well into the future (past 2016) to my knowledge is RB (not sure about TR's contract with Ferrari as to its duration?).

Essentially, RB is the only team, as it stands, that could make use of this new engine.

[Nand0Nand0]

Great comments by SM. If Ferrari did leave F1 there is only one place they would go to IMO, LM.

[Rob]

how many times we heard Ferrari say would leave F1?

I love to see them actually do it, and join WEC, and build a LMP1 Hybrid, also with the 2017 LMP2 rules coming in. Could even build a LMP2 car, and race in The IMSA WeatherTech Championship. :xmasbiggrin:

[Ed Harley]

Frankly, F1 today is quite boring and I fear that it will get even more so with the new regulations increasing aero.

When you threaten too many times with leaving the circus it eventually loses the desired effect. I would not mind at all with Ferrari entering endurance racing instead of F1.

[Nand0Nand0]

For sure Luca used the "Ferrari leaving F1" card a lot, and so it carried less weight each time he used it. Sergio is a completely different kettle of fish. In the end I just smiled when Luca said this, but with SM, I tend to believe if they push ahead SF may well move to LM racing and depart F1.

[Nova]

I still think the best way to solve the engine price crisis is for the manufacturers to offer their older V8 engines for the original 2013 price but offer the far superior V6 turbo hybrids at the normal price. That way, Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren and Renault will always have the advantage but the lesser teams will still have the odd chance of winning. This also promotes the customers to buy the V6 if they have the cash but doesn't bankrupt/force them out of the sport if they don't have enough.
Also, this worked many years in the past so why not now?

Because the V8's are faster and sound better. :xmasbiggrin:

[TigerKing]

Because the V8's are faster and sound better. :xmasbiggrin:

the V8's were actually slower.

[FerrariF60]

the V8's were actually slower.

can you elaborate on your comment??
i think the v8's used to put a LOT faster lap times

[TigerKing]

can you elaborate on your comment??
i think the v8's used to put a LOT faster lap times

The V8's produced more bhp than the V6 individually. However, the V6 coupled with the turbo and the ERS (estimated to producing equivalently 150 bhp), the new generation is faster. You can just look at the lap times. Circuits that are power dependent like Monza and Spa have quicker times in 2014/2015 than in 2012/2013.
The cars are slower because of the less aerodynamics.
Sources: Wikipedia, Red Bull regulation change video, Formula1.com

[SilverSpeed]

I'll support Ferrari where ever they go!

[NenoX]

It's simple, FOM should just subsidize the PUs for the mid-field teams/cash tight teams (around 60% of the grid). This would offer more money for the teams to allocate to development and talent acquisition. This would lead to then improvement of the competition which would better the "show". Which might attract people back to the sport.

It's just a matter money in the end. Threats won't make anything work and as SM pointed out there should be a cooperation. As the manufacturers stand firm with their contracts, isnt it high time for FOM/CVC to invest in the sport which they consider as a cash cow?

[TigerKing]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sp...-1227646851073

Marchionne thinks Ferrari is a government or something. Very selfish of our leaders to quit just because they don't have supreme power over the sport anymore. Now i guess Ferrari knows how Sauber has been feeling for the past 30 ish years.

[Liscia]

Bravo! You tell'em Sergio!

[Rob]

The V8's produced more bhp than the V6 individually. However, the V6 coupled with the turbo and the ERS (estimated to producing equivalently 150 bhp), the new generation is faster. You can just look at the lap times. Circuits that are power dependent like Monza and Spa have quicker times in 2014/2015 than in 2012/2013.
The cars are slower because of the less aerodynamics.
Sources: Wikipedia, Red Bull regulation change video, Formula1.com

To be fair, the cars 2012-2013 were highly developed around EBD, and with EBD, the cars were loosing fair amount of BHP because of that concept. Since 2008 the cars been getting slower. Thats not what F1 and racing is all about. Nowadays you can go fast and be very safe. Just take look at the mighty 919 hybrid, on average, 6 seconds faster this year than they were last year, and that was with pretty much the same rules.

[Nand0Nand0]

...Since 2008 the cars been getting slower...

I agree, but I'm tempted to change that 8 to a 4

[Tifoso]

We could easily walk, and start a new Formula. Call it GP1, or something. Where Ferrari is, there is Formula 1.

Having said that, one has to wonder if the F1 concept has reached its apex. Can't go too much faster, really, without special driver suits to prevent black out--and who wants that?

I wonder if Greig is right? LM?

[abbottcostello]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sp...-1227646851073

Marchionne thinks Ferrari is a government or something. Very selfish of our leaders to quit just because they don't have supreme power over the sport anymore. Now i guess Ferrari knows how Sauber has been feeling for the past 30 ish years.

Nothing more than opening moves in the game of chess that will ensue through this off season. What do you expect Ferrari to stay at all costs, make sure F1, FOM, Bernie, Todt & all the independent teams are happy & healthy? He has an obligation to the company that pays him to look out for their best interests.

Bernie is upset because somehow he feels he let his dictatorship turn into a quasi-democracy, now he's talking up this "F1 is in trouble because of these PU's" to try & grab some power back & I'd bet Dietrich M has been filling his ear a lot lately, too.

Oh, and I'm sure after he capped the PU costs, feeling like superman, he'd renegotiate FOM deals w/Marussia, Sauber, TR, FI, & even Williams, with his new found power, because even after relief on the PU's they're still in a world of hurt for money.

[abbottcostello]

We could easily walk, and start a new Formula. Call it GP1, or something. Where Ferrari is, there is Formula 1.

Having said that, one has to wonder if the F1 concept has reached its apex. Can't go too much faster, really, without special driver suits to prevent black out--and who wants that?

I wonder if Greig is right? LM?

Sounding more appealing all the time! :xmasbiggrin:

On a side note, Renault & Honda must be quietly steaming, listening to all the talk of Ferrari & Merc have all the power

[Stormy]

To be clear, by "independent engine supplier" are you talking about the Indycar twin turbo that Bernie is pushing?

They are talking about an engine that differs completely from the current spec. F1 PU. On top of that it would specifically be unavailable to any team that manufactured its own engine (Ferrari, Merc & now Renault F1, not sure how McLaren would be classified).

Out of the others that have to buy a PU, the only team that is not contracted well into the future (past 2016) to my knowledge is RB (not sure about TR's contract with Ferrari as to its duration?).

Essentially, RB is the only team, as it stands, that could make use of this new engine.

If budget engines are introduced they will be introduced most probably earliest at 2017. The teams with the new aero and chassis rules will be able to adapt their cars to those engines. Right?
And why should a team that makes their own engine use that budget engine? Of course they won't use them because they are making their own engines, they are making marketing of those engines they are selling in their commercial cars and its in their interest to produce their own engine.

[abbottcostello]

If budget engines are introduced they will be introduced most probably earliest at 2017. The teams with the new aero and chassis rules will be able to adapt their cars to those engines. Right?
And why should a team that makes their own engine use that budget engine? Of course they won't use them because they are making their own engines, they are making marketing of those engines they are selling in their commercial cars and its in their interest to produce their own engine.

I could see a scenario where, say, Ferrari would do computer modelling on both engine specs. & could come to conclusion that the 2.4l engine with no ERS gives a clear advantage. Of course, RBR & maybe TR will be using this "budget" engine, so what should Ferrari do, stick with what they know is a lesser potential or apply to FIA as an approved supplier of alternate spec. engines & make their own engine with the alternate spec?
We already know RBR will scream loud & long if they think the mfgr. PU's have an edge over these proposed budget engines

You know they will explore these new engines, if for no other reason than to see what they'll be up against. They may already have one in their workshop, at the very least, some detailed drawings to study!

[Stormy]

I could see a scenario where, say, Ferrari would do computer modelling on both engine specs. & could come to conclusion that the 2.4l engine with no ERS gives a clear advantage. Of course, RBR & maybe TR will be using this "budget" engine, so what should Ferrari do, stick with what they know is a lesser potential or apply to FIA as an approved supplier of alternate spec. engines & make their own engine with the alternate spec?
We already know RBR will scream loud & long if they think the mfgr. PU's have an edge over these proposed budget engines

You know they will explore these new engines, if for no other reason than to see what they'll be up against. They may already have one in their workshop, at the very least, some detailed drawings to study!

No, its against Ferrari marketing interest to use an alternate spec. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda will always use their own engine no matter what. Because they are doing engine marketing.
And, i don't think that the alternate budget engine will be better then the ones manufacturers does, maybe it will be better then one or at most 2 manufacturers engine, but definitely not better then all of them.
In the past an independent engine supplier proved to be a good thing i think. The thing is, now if Williams make a lot better chassis then Mercedes they still won't have a chance at the title because Mercedes will sabotage their PU in one way or another.