German GP 2014 Race thread

[Senna4Ever]

It appears Mercedes has enough aerodynamics to spare, Ferrari not so much.

Why do you think Hamilton struggled to come close out of the mid-speed corners right before DRS zones to overtake Bottas?
Due to the aerodynamics in spare of Merc?
... by which reason Kimi made is fastest lap of the race in lap 55 even with this aerodynamic disadvantage: a miracle ...

but however ... it was the front wing which prevented Kimi to end in the top 10

[Alesi1]

Feel a bit sorry for Kimi now, clearly way out of his depth against Alonso. And the talk of retirement might come a bit closer than the end of 2015.

Yeah me too. Perhaps the general f1 community especially the Italian media will finally appreciate the fact that Alonso is an unbelievable driver, whodoesnt generate his speed by overdriving cars ala Hamilton, its for this reason that I don't think his speed will drop off as much as he he gets older, he knows how to get a car to travel its fastest as a skill, not simply pushing it till it falls off the track. The pressure on Kimi is huge. As I mentioned in another thread, in the old 10,6,4,3,2,1 points system he would have 0 points after 10 races, crazy.

[DIEK]

9 for Alonso?

Today has written the substitute reporter for holidays, sure!

[Yoda401]

The difference in performace between Raikkonen and Alonso would make one consider if they really are receiving equal treatment given how Ferrari historically operate, Irvine being the defining example of this.

However, in this instance I don't think Raikkonen has adapted quickly enough to the car and he is essentially the architect of his own demise. Its such a disappointment. To be 10 races into the season and to have finished no higher than 7th is just not good enough - with a crappy 19 points to his name. Unless he shows a really significant turnaround in the second half of the season, and by that I mean he would need to beat Alonso in every race.

If Alonso stays for 2015, then also get Bianchi onboard.

[SilverSpeed]

9 lol must be mistake indeed I think he wanted to type a 6 but entered a 9 .

[Ed Harley]

Why do you think Hamilton struggled to come close out of the mid-speed corners right before DRS zones to overtake Bottas?
Due to the aerodynamics in spare of Merc?

Older tyres than what Bottas had, perhaps.

... by which reason Kimi made is fastest lap of the race in lap 55 even with this aerodynamic disadvantage: a miracle ...

Lighter fuel load and decent tyres, I believe. With an unbroken front wing he had most likely been faster but it is what it is.

[Rob]

Good to watch, also Ted says something about Wiiliams, it maybe they havent got as much D/F on the car.

[Winter]

Kimi's end plate damage is much smaller than what happened to Lewis, and as the post above mentioned, there was no need to change Lewis wing as the time lost would be more.

The function of the end plate is NOT to generate downforce, they are there to try and create an outwash to move the air around the front wheel. It's performance advantage is minimal, and the time Kimi lose in the pits would be many times more than that, and people would moan about Ferrari making bad decision for Kimi again.

Kimi him self said that his left front didn't last because of that broken wing. He was fast with new tires, but not long, because that left front tire didn't last.

[Rob]

Kimi him self said that his left front didn't last because of that broken wing. He was fast with new tires, but not long, because that left front tire didn't last.

as without that cascade element, the tyre was scraping along the tarmac.

[radosav]

It seems that difference between Alo and Ric at the end of the race was less than 0,1 sec.

Fernando Alonso : "For the last stint I was saving fuel but I was battling with Ricciardo so I had to decide to give up the position and cross the line or fight with Ricciardo and be on the limit to cross the line. I decided to fight with Ricciardo to be in the position and then try to manage the fuel as well as I could. On the last lap I had to massively save fuel - I was in eighth gear all lap and was lucky the race wasn't 100m longer!"

[scuderia_nano]

vecchiasignora

Thanks. I had no idea we build car around 1 driver and pay the other 1 to be number 2.

Shows how much self respect is lacked by Kimi and how desperate he was to drive for Ferrari.


And i believe that u r a Ferrari fan as much as I believe that Kimi can beat Alonso in an equal car or Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel not wantig team orders.

Lastly, lol.

[Nova]

Its not fair really to keep slammin Kimi...
Why dont u simply wait until he gets a good car under him.

Interesting thing mentioned about Ferrari's so called number 2 drivers.
Sure does look like Alonso gets better equip. Not taking anything from his driving.
He is a monster. Actually, it does look like he gets better than Kimi, n Massa to name 2.
Look at Massa now, except for his lousy race luck, he wiping FA.
And Bottas is 1 of the most exciting drivers to come along in awhile.
Must be the car aey?

[Hornet]

Its not fair really to keep slammin Kimi...
Why dont u simply wait until he gets a good car under him.

Interesting thing mentioned about Ferrari's so called number 2 drivers.
Sure does look like Alonso gets better equip. Not taking anything from his driving.
He is a monster. Actually, it does look like he gets better than Kimi, n Massa to name 2.
Look at Massa now, except for his lousy race luck, he wiping FA.
And Bottas is 1 of the most exciting drivers to come along in awhile.
Must be the car aey?

Of course the cars matter. But within a team, both drivers get equal equipment, because the team needs both drivers to be scoring points. People sometimes try to justify performance differences they could not accept by blaming the team of focusing on one driver only, even though that doesn't make any logical sense.

And just to play the devil's advocate for a moment. Last season some of us have been saying that Massa doesn't need to be replaced, he wasn't the problem. But those on the other side of the fence said no, Massa should be doing better it's not the car, Kimi will certainly do better, push Alonso, etc etc. Well, if that's how they want to play it, then shouldn't Kimi be held to a higher standard then? They criticize Massa harshly at every race when he doesn't beat Alonso (nevermind the smaller gap to Alonso), but now the standard has somehow change for Kimi, where they are more than willing to shift the blame to the team and the equipment.

The way Massa is performing at Williams shows that we had made a mistake. Maybe we should just own up to that.

I'm not even blaming Kimi here. He was required to do the impossible task he's not capable of, and it was the team's decision to put him there. And the fans and media hype certainly did not make things any better. When you have those who advocated replacing Massa hype up what Kimi should be doing, is it any surprise that many are now disappointed that he's not living up to the hype the fans created?

[Ed Harley]

At least Mr Mattiacci seems to have full confidence in KR.

[Senna4Ever]

Its not fair really to keep slammin Kimi...
Why dont u simply wait until he gets a good car under him.

a) thought that too ... until Silverstone test where a young guy from Marussia F1 team had no big deal to drive this actual Ferrari car to good times and also the guy who only knows modern F1 from simulator until a technical issue stopped him.
b) with waiting that a perfect car from Ferrari F1 supports the capabilities of our drivers to drive fast we have very small and dusty trap in the sand of hope ...

but for me it is mainly point a) and especially the performance of Bianchi which changed my point of view about Kimis performance ... cause if a guy, who is driving the first time this Ferrari as fast as the second driver who got half of season to do with it there is something wrong then ...

my opinion about the performance of Kimi ... thats it ... but don't worry you won't find me him criticising here at all (past and future) ... i give word ...

[Nova]

Of course the cars matter. But within a team, both drivers get equal equipment, because the team needs both drivers to be scoring points. People sometimes try to justify performance differences they could not accept by blaming the team of focusing on one driver only, even though that doesn't make any logical sense.

And just to play the devil's advocate for a moment. Last season some of us have been saying that Massa doesn't need to be replaced, he wasn't the problem. But those on the other side of the fence said no, Massa should be doing better it's not the car, Kimi will certainly do better, push Alonso, etc etc. Well, if that's how they want to play it, then shouldn't Kimi be held to a higher standard then? They criticize Massa harshly at every race when he doesn't beat Alonso (nevermind the smaller gap to Alonso), but now the standard has somehow change for Kimi, where they are more than willing to shift the blame to the team and the equipment.

The way Massa is performing at Williams shows that we had made a mistake. Maybe we should just own up to that.

I'm not even blaming Kimi here. He was required to do the impossible task he's not capable of, and it was the team's decision to put him there. And the fans and media hype certainly did not make things any better. When you have those who advocated replacing Massa hype up what Kimi should be doing, is it any surprise that many are now disappointed that he's not living up to the hype the fans created?

Good points 4 sure. On Massa, I think it funny that ever since he was asked to move over..or Alonso is faster than you, he was never as fast as Alo, or able to compete w/him for lack of a better word. Now we have KR who was winning in a pretty good Lotus to being critisized. Did Massa or Kimi lose their speed, will to race? No, I dont think so. So wheres that leave us? Massa was almost WDC 08, he was faster than Alo, from a certain point of view. Kimi is WDC 07 and the only driver to win in the infamous F60, which no one else could drive. I have no idea what Ferrari is up to with its drivers, n thats why I no like the driver bashing, especially when people bash drivers because they think they know their personalities or judge them for whatever it is they do off the track.
Sure, Alo is considered to be the top driver right now, he's proven that time and again. But there aint no way that Kimi OR Massa is that much slower than him in equal cars. I cant see it.

[Nova]

a) thought that too ... until Silverstone test where a young guy from Marussia F1 team had no big deal to drive this actual Ferrari car to good times and also the guy who only knows modern F1 from simulator until a technical issue stopped him.
b) with waiting that a perfect car from Ferrari F1 supports the capabilities of our drivers to drive fast we have very small and dusty trap in the sand of hope ...

but for me it is mainly point a) and especially the performance of Bianchi which changed my point of view about Kimis performance ... cause if a guy, who is driving the first time this Ferrari as fast as the second driver who got half of season to do with it there is something wrong then ...

my opinion about the performance of Kimi ... thats it ... but don't worry you won't find me him criticising here at all (past and future) ... i give word ...

I like him to, but he was testing. Time and again Kimi has done better times than Alo in testing. Doesnt translate to race performance, same for Massa. I think if he was part of the team, he wouldnt be doing any better than Massa, did, or Kimi does.
We've watched both Massa n Kimi in the past, both great drivers and always able to fight w/Alo, just not in the same team.

[Hornet]

Sure, Alo is considered to be the top driver right now, he's proven that time and again. But there aint no way that Kimi OR Massa is that much slower than him in equal cars. I cant see it.

Well, Massa and Kimi are world champion capable drivers for sure, but the difference is Alonso isn't just another world champion. He is considered as one of the greats, something that's very rare which is what make him and the others like Schumi and Senna the greatest drivers of their respective generation. If other champions are anywhere near their ability, then they wouldn't be great. There are many world champions, but there's a reason why names like Senna and Schumi stands out among the champions.

Schumi is another proof that such driver exist. He put all of his team mates to shame. Eddie Irvine is just like Massa, came close to winning a title. But when compared against Schumi, he gets completely eclipsed. Doesn't mean Irvine was bad, he just happened to team up against a giant.

Anyway that makes more sense to me than the suggestion that Kimi is not getting equal tool. There's absolutely no reason for the team to do that. Both drivers receive equal support, it's their abilities that makes the difference, not some evil scheme by the team. Otherwise Kimi or Massa (if it was up to him) wouldn't have wanted to drive for Ferrari or retire with the team. Massa could have gone elsewhere long ago, and same with Kimi, if they did not receive equal support.

[Nova]

Well, Massa and Kimi are world champion capable drivers for sure, but the difference is Alonso isn't just another world champion. He is considered as one of the greats, something that's very rare which is what make him and the others like Schumi and Senna the greatest drivers of their respective generation. If other champions are anywhere near their ability, then they wouldn't be great. There are many world champions, but there's a reason why names like Senna and Schumi stands out among the champions.

Schumi is another proof that such driver exist. He put all of his team mates to shame. Eddie Irvine is just like Massa, came close to winning a title. But when compared against Schumi, he gets completely eclipsed. Doesn't mean Irvine was bad, he just happened to team up against a giant.

Anyway that makes more sense to me than the suggestion that Kimi is not getting equal tool. There's absolutely no reason for the team to do that. Both drivers receive equal support, it's their abilities that makes the difference, not some evil scheme by the team. Otherwise Kimi or Massa (if it was up to him) wouldn't have wanted to drive for Ferrari or retire with the team. Massa could have gone elsewhere long ago, and same with Kimi, if they did not receive equal support.

I do agree with a lot of what u say, Its how I sees it though. I dont see an evil plan by Ferrari, I just dont see Alo killing all of his teammates in the same way you do. My point is, Ive watched both Massa and Kimi fight close w/FA, and as I mentioned, they simply just didnt get slow all of a sudden. So I believe theres more to it. In what way, Im not sure...Great conversation thou.

[Senna4Ever]

So I believe theres more to it.

as if Kimi would allow to play dump with him ...

[Greig]

I do agree with a lot of what u say, Its how I sees it though. I dont see an evil plan by Ferrari, I just dont see Alo killing all of his teammates in the same way you do. My point is, Ive watched both Massa and Kimi fight close w/FA, and as I mentioned, they simply just didnt get slow all of a sudden. So I believe theres more to it. In what way, Im not sure...Great conversation thou.

It's a bit like Rubens, when the car was great he could challenge MS and sometimes beat him, but in 2005 when the car was rather poor then MS destroyed Rubens. The same problem goes for Felipe and Kimi without a great car then they are average compared to a MS or Alonso.

[anacleto]

Alongside Kimi? Do you mean he should be in Alonso's car? You also say he can't do worse than Kimi? I believe Kimi's car is worse than Massa's car was, for one, and I just can't understand anyone for that matter, thinking Bianchi can be compared to two champion drivers with regards to getting either car on the podium. If these two top drivers we have can't do it yet, how on earth is Bianchi going to? With the same equipment? Bianchi seems to only leave that 19th pos. when there are 4 or more DNFs. That's not getting better and better, it's getting what Massa doesn't for the life of him have , good luck.

[Greig]

Bianchi is in a terrible car off course his finishing position is never going to change much, just like when Alonso was in a Minardi.

[vcs316]

If a driver jumps from a Marussia to a Ferrari which has better downforce, handling, aero etc he is bound to perform better. Not taking away anything from Jules, he is a fantastic driver and a future Ferrari driver. Just look at what is happening between RIC and VET.. Its the same thing, RIC is destroying VET because suddenly he has a better car than a Torro Rosso.

RAI, VET, MAS are all champions but they need the car to behave to their liking for them to perform at a level worthy of fighting for the WDC.

[ARUN M KARUNAN]

Retirment doesn't matter the 2015 car matters