Abu Dhabi 2013 - Race

[diesel08]

Which strange strategy to let Alonso be ahead?

You mean the much earlier second pit stop of Massa? Even that Alonsos 1st pit stop was before Massas?

Felipe


vs

Alonso [Lap - Time]


So I don't think they called Felipe to "early" (like they did with Webber last race).
Therefore Alonso was quicker (or equal at least) on the medium even they were two laps older ...
So by far no kind of evidence that they called Felipe to early and therefore he wasn't able to use the tires

Or do you mean the strange fact that Alonso was much longer on the medium tires (pit lap 44) even he started 2 laps earlier?
and was able to drive same times like Felipe after his second pit stop even with old medium tires?

Felipe


Alonso


so Felipe and Alonso had nearly same out-lap after pit-stop even with different tires ...

didn't Rob S said on team radio something like


So this comment from Rob S wasn't really sure what would happen ....

But to feed the paranoia: The problem changing left front tire was also pure intention at Felipes second stop ...

[sagi58]

In a hindsight. Its easy to call something a mistake after the fact.

Very true!!
Unfortunately, it's also something we "armchair" critics forget at times!!

[Greig]

In a hindsight. Its easy to call something a mistake after the fact.

Off course it is easy for us fans to say in hindsight, but we have clever people on the pitwall that should not be making such obvious mistakes and we should expect them to do a better job than us

[Rob]

Stefano Domenicali Q&A: The Ferrari boss' post-Abu Dhabi GP press briefing, Tyre strategy and Alonso's move on Vergne up for discussion
By William Esler. Last Updated: November 4, 2013 10:06am.

The Ferrari Team Principal discusses Felipe Massa's tyre strategy, Fernando Alonso's move on Jean-Eric Vergne and the battle for second in the Constructors' Championship with the assembled media following the Abu Dhabi GP.

Felipe Massa has said that he felt it was a mistake to fit the medium tyres at his final stop. Obviously at the time you thought it was correct, but in retrospect do you think it was a mistake or does Felipe just need to accept that that was the decision made?
Stefano Domenicali: "I think at that stage that was the thinking. Of course retrospectively you could say that it was not the right decision, but there are a lot of good Monday morning quarter-backs in life."

Can you tell us about the investigation into Fernando?
SD: "In my view you see clearly that when Fernando is out on track, his car is alongside the other car. So the regulation says clearly that if you have a portion of the car over the rear-line the other car should give space to let the car through."

This hasn't been a good weekend for you, are you more optimistic for the final two and can you still finish second in the Constructors' Championship?
SD: "Yes. We are in terms of pure performance as weak as the others are compared to Red Bull who are in their own league and maybe we can start there next year. With the others we are absolutely there so I am confident we can do our race and take the points that are needed to come second. Don't underestimate Lotus of course, because they had a problem and only scored points with one car, but that is racing. It should be an interesting couple of races."

There seemed to be some issues with the car in qualifying in recent races. What is the key to getting into the top five?
SD: "I think for sure we know that we have a lack of traction and downforce in certain corners and we need to manage the set up of the car and not just improve it. We know we are paying a big price also with temperature, because the more we go to hot conditions, the more our car is becoming inefficient. We are now moving to a situation where the conditions are more suitable for our car and that is why I said we still have everything to fight for."

[Forzi]

Which strange strategy to let Alonso be ahead?

You mean the much earlier second pit stop of Massa? Even that Alonsos 1st pit stop was before Massas?

Felipe


vs

Alonso [Lap - Time]


So I don't think they called Felipe to "early" (like they did with Webber last race).
Therefore Alonso was quicker (or equal at least) on the medium even they were two laps older ...
So by far no kind of evidence that they called Felipe to early and therefore he wasn't able to use the tires

Or do you mean the strange fact that Alonso was much longer on the medium tires (pit lap 44) even he started 2 laps earlier?
and was able to drive same times like Felipe after his second pit stop even with old medium tires?

Felipe


Alonso


so Felipe and Alonso had nearly same out-lap after pit-stop even with different tires ...

didn't Rob S said on team radio something like


So this comment from Rob S wasn't really sure what would happen ....

But to feed the paranoia: The problem changing left front tire was also pure intention at Felipes second stop ...

Felipe had to do less laps with the softs than he had to do on the first stint, with both tires being equally scrubbed (one quali lap done). Not to mention the car being lighter and the track much more rubbed in. If he had went for the softs, he would have been lapping over a sec faster than he did with the mediums so in no way would he have been behind Fernando. It was rather obvious and this is not something like "easy to judge after the race", can't accept that i was the only one going "what the hell" when he got the mediums on. Even Felipe who was busy racing, looking after the tires, defending and so on, knew that softs should have went on his car. An error was done with Fernando also, for not pitting earlier. Maby they wanted to try one stopping, but soon saw that they couldn't make it, but from a tactical point of view, they were really too deep in the soft tires window. Gladly, we weren't racing many drivers at that point besides Lewis with done tires.

This was in fact, tactically bad played by Ferrari in many ways in a straight forward situation and WCC points were as you say "thrown away".

[Poltergeistes]

Felipe had to do less laps with the softs than he had to do on the first stint, with both tires being equally scrubbed (one quali lap done). Not to mention the car being lighter and the track much more rubbed in. If he had went for the softs, he would have been lapping over a sec faster than he did with the mediums so in no way would he have been behind Fernando. It was rather obvious and this is not something like "easy to judge after the race", can't accept that i was the only one going "what the hell" when he got the mediums on. Even Felipe who was busy racing, looking after the tires, defending and so on, knew that softs should have went on his car. An error was done with Fernando also, for not pitting earlier. Maby they wanted to try one stopping, but soon saw that they couldn't make it, but from a tactical point of view, they were really too deep in the soft tires window. Gladly, we weren't racing many drivers at that point besides Lewis with done tires.

This was in fact, tactically bad played by Ferrari in many ways in a straight forward situation and WCC points were as you say "thrown away".

exactly, and felipe was very surprised that they didn't put on softs, so it's not like the occasion called for a gamble, when they do that an it doesn't pay off it is easy to understand, but when everything is all in place, and for no reason they do something like this, makes you wonder and ask why. and for stefano to just say monday morning quater-backing is simply insulting, he doesn't give the reason why they went for medium (slower) when they could have gone faster.

[paneristi]

very true

Off course it is easy for us fans to say in hindsight, but we have clever people on the pitwall that should not be making such obvious mistakes and we should expect them to do a better job than us

[Poltergeistes]

+1

Question though (a bit naïve perhaps). Why would Ferrari want Alonso ahead of Massa at this stage of the championship anyway? They threw away precious WCC points and surely they could do other things to secure 5th and 6th with Alonso in front (a longer pit stop, etc.)

To make sure that it is not a waste sending felipe packing to bring in kimi? that they held up telling felipe they weren't going to keep him way before the second half of the season? cause ricciardo is not as good as a second driver/shield as Massa?

You pick... and in all of those scenarios still Ferrari must come first, but again i think our problem is and has been the car, not the drivers... so if we simply change one driver, what about how we are making the cars? why we can't keep developing it during the season? all of those questions won't simply go away once Felipe empty his locker.

[sagi58]

WoW!!

We seem to have gone from no one is bigger than the team to
crucifying them for "ruining" Massa's race based on a decision
that was made in a split second!

[Poltergeistes]

WoW!!

We seem to have gone from no one is bigger than the team to
crucifying them for "ruining" Massa's race based on a decision
that was made in a split second!

They didn't ruin his race, but it was something not a last minute decision that cost the team points, how could we overcome a problem if we never acknowledge them, Stefano simply disregarded it. he wouldn't have done that if that had happened to Fernando's race, he would be apologizing instead of pretending nothing wrong happened.

[Hornet]

Off course it is easy for us fans to say in hindsight, but we have clever people on the pitwall that should not be making such obvious mistakes and we should expect them to do a better job than us

I agree that's true. But IMO, sometimes these decision making may be more complex than what it appears to us, when they have so many additional input and data that they are using to guide them. We often hear how computer simulation says this strategy is so and so, therefore I'm assuming they have some computer stuff running in real time during the race telling them what happens if we do this or that (ie. if the computer says A but their gut feeling says B, who to trust)

Well, hopefully the team learn from each experience and improve.

[abbottcostello]

Fact #1 - The team bosses (or decision makers, if you like) think Alonso is faster & able to give a better result on most occasions*

Fact #2 - Having your best driver* behind your #2 driver & trying to get past him is not a good circumstance.

Fact #3 - Decisions to driver strategy are not made in a void, the overall benefit to the team strategy is an overriding factor.

Fact #4 - Your #2 driver is looking for a new team for next season & MAY not cooperate if given team orders.

* - you could probably debate me, but the driver ranking I assigned is based on WDC standings of this 2013 season & the fact they have not retained Felipe for next year.

If I were the team principal, these are realities I would use in making the in-race strategy.
Cars should be quite even, so even though driver #1 is theoretically faster it will still be difficult to get by driver #2 & every overtaking maneuver involves risk. Overtaking often causes the pace of both cars to suffer. Any mishap & you're possibly not getting ANY WCC or WDC points at all.

I'd be looking for a strategy that gets my driver #1 ahead of my driver #2 in the safest way possible that does not affect EITHER one of them negatively and maximizes WCC points.

Based on earlier lap times in the race, having Felipe do his final stint on the prime tires should not cause him to lose any positions to others (I haven't really done the math on this part), but it should be enough to have Fernando come out of his stop slightly ahead of Felipe.

Lastly, I would never ask a pit crew or one member of it to purposely do a mistake, too much potential for it to go from a minor glitch to major gaff. I really doubt they practice pit stops with intentional mistakes & if they haven't practiced it, that would be idiocy to ask them to try it during a stop (Pssst, hey Alex, on this next pit stop, fumble around so it takes about 1 sec. longer to change the tire & don't tell anyone else what you're doing, got it???).

I call them facts, maybe assumptions of how I think a team would view things would be more accurate!

Excuse me, gotta go do the strategy for the USGP now or maybe I'll just wait until after the race

[Poltergeistes]

Fact #1 - The team bosses (or decision makers, if you like) think Alonso is faster & able to give a better result on most occasions*

Fact #2 - Having your best driver* behind your #2 driver & trying to get past him is not a good circumstance.

Fact #3 - Decisions to driver strategy are not made in a void, the overall benefit to the team strategy is an overriding factor.

Fact #4 - Your #2 driver is looking for a new team for next season & MAY not cooperate if given team orders.

* - you could probably debate me, but the driver ranking I assigned is based on WDC standings of this 2013 season & the fact they have not retained Felipe for next year.

If I were the team principal, these are realities I would use in making the in-race strategy.
Cars should be quite even, so even though driver #1 is theoretically faster it will still be difficult to get by driver #2 & every overtaking maneuver involves risk. Overtaking often causes the pace of both cars to suffer. Any mishap & you're possibly not getting ANY WCC or WDC points at all.

I'd be looking for a strategy that gets my driver #1 ahead of my driver #2 in the safest way possible that does not affect EITHER one of them negatively and maximizes WCC points.

Based on earlier lap times in the race, having Felipe do his final stint on the prime tires should not cause him to lose any positions to others (I haven't really done the math on this part), but it should be enough to have Fernando come out of his stop slightly ahead of Felipe.

Lastly, I would never ask a pit crew or one member of it to purposely do a mistake, too much potential for it to go from a minor glitch to major gaff. I really doubt they practice pit stops with intentional mistakes & if they haven't practiced it, that would be idiocy to ask them to try it during a stop (Pssst, hey Alex, on this next pit stop, fumble around so it takes about 1 sec. longer to change the tire & don't tell anyone else what you're doing, got it???).

I call them facts, maybe assumptions of how I think a team would view things would be more accurate!

Excuse me, gotta go do the strategy for the USGP now or maybe I'll just wait until after the race

Fact # 1 Felipe is mr nice guy fernando demands more from the team, since felipe isn't and wasnt a contender for the championship the pit crew would take a little longer to do their job, while fernando's they know fernando will deliver, so it all comes down to having a pitstop that is as fast as redbull ( all of this i'm talking about monza).

Fact #2 at this stage, what would be the problem in having felipe finishing the race in front of fernando? whenever he had to make way for fernando when the WDC was really on he did, he did in 2010 and in 2012 at crucial times, he didn't do it once this season, when everyone knew by then it was impossible to beat vettel for the championship.

fact #3 it's not about asking a guy at the pitcrew to do it slower, it would be a little more subtle, as you said, in ferrari felipe is already out of the door.

Fact# 4 these little glitches on felipes race strategy are really that unconceivable, when you take germany 2010 into account? when the team risk being punished for giving such order, because back then it was banned.

It only makes sense, say if real madrid is going to let go of ronaldo, and nobody knows, and the same week the coach says he wants him to stay in team, would it be smart to announce his exit and to break his contract in time for barcelona to pick him up? or would it be smarter to wait for the transfer window to close?

I think ferrari waited for redbull to get ricciardo, cause they know how good felipe can be with a good car. thats understanable an smart from the team's point of view.

its just that ferrari sometimes do somethings that hurts and is uncallled for, like stefano saying felipe would stay after the gp before monza, and then letting him go.

again i unerstand why the team held it in for so long, and actually gave signs that they would keep felipe, because at that point the wdc was still open, an they would need felipe to do the same job he did in the second half of 2012. but after it was clearly over as far as WDC goes, what difference does it make which comes ahead now? since we are fighting for second place in the WCC, i'm sure fernando is not going to quit or throw a fit because felipe finished one race in front of him, he's not like that. but for massa it would be important as he is looking for a job.

If felipe needs to show a good job now to get a job next season, this is good job for ferrari, so whats the matter with it? he has been doing that ever since he arrived at maranello, working hard to belong in the team.

i know felipe and ferrari will always have a connection, and a good relationship, i just think both sides shouldnt drop the ball now, the teams that can fight ferrari next season already have their lineup, so it's not like felipe is going to be a tough competitor agaisnt ferrari next season.

[ManFromMilan]

They didn't ruin his race, but it was something not a last minute decision that cost the team points, how could we overcome a problem if we never acknowledge them, Stefano simply disregarded it. he wouldn't have done that if that had happened to Fernando's race, he would be apologizing instead of pretending nothing wrong happened.

Sorry, but the Ferrari pitwall have led Fernando down too in the past. I don't rate the Ferrari pitwall as the #1 team when it comes to that kind of strategy.

Excuse me, gotta go do the strategy for the USGP now or maybe I'll just wait until after the race

[Senna4Ever]

Felipe had to do less laps with the softs than he had to do on the first stint, with both tires being equally scrubbed (one quali lap done). Not to mention the car being lighter and the track much more rubbed in. If he had went for the softs, he would have been lapping over a sec faster than he did with the mediums so in no way would he have been behind Fernando. It was rather obvious and this is not something like "easy to judge after the race", can't accept that i was the only one going "what the hell" when he got the mediums on. Even Felipe who was busy racing, looking after the tires, defending and so on, knew that softs should have went on his car. An error was done with Fernando also, for not pitting earlier. Maby they wanted to try one stopping, but soon saw that they couldn't make it, but from a tactical point of view, they were really too deep in the soft tires window. Gladly, we weren't racing many drivers at that point besides Lewis with done tires.

This was in fact, tactically bad played by Ferrari in many ways in a straight forward situation and WCC points were as you say "thrown away".

I don't say that the decision to go for mediums was well chosen ... maybe I haven't said it straight enough.
Of course now we know it was a big mistake as we lost some valuable points against Lotus and especially against Merc. And Hamilton won't do us many favours again ...

I just say: it wasn't a purpose to let Alonso pass Felipe because then Ferrari must have known that he (Alonso) will be ahead of Felipe right after pit stop. And this was very unlikely as Alonso was still behind Felipe when 2nd pit stops began. And Alonso had to drive 6 more laps on older mediums than Felipe did. Would you place all your money on the result that Fernando will be ahead of Felipe while Felipe was able to race 6 laps with much fresher mediums than Alonso had? Under normal circumstances Ferrari's plan could only have been: that Alonso passes Felipe after 2nd pit stop as Alonso had softs instead of mediums. But that would have implied to sacrify valuable points for Ferrari ... which I can't imagine Alonso wants too ... but who knows ... and as we see how they are acting and respecting each other I don't think that Alonso wants that Felipe has to suffer some places down the grid ... maybe change 5 & 6th if its for his ego but not 5th for him and only 8th for Felipe.

Felipes 2nd pit stop unfortunately lasted 1 second more than Alonsos (22.315 vs 21.453) because they had the problem to put on the left front tire - and this situation gave Alonso the opportunity to get ahead of the Felipe imho .. not the difference between the tire types as he (Alonso) didn't had a chance to play out the advantage with softs yet.
Of course with different tire type Alonso was then able to do better times as Felipe but only 2nd lap after the pit stop. But without the mistake in the pit - which costs Felipe 1 second against Alonso - Felipe would have been once again before Alonso (any maby also closer to Vergne and earlier in DRS Zone and therefore still ahead of Alonso and Vergne ....)
It is no doubt that Felipe would have been ahead of Alonso if he (Felipe) would have had softs also for last stint but then the fact would be that Felipe would have had and advantage of 6 laps on softs compared to 6 laps with very old mediums of Alonso. And therefore no surprise that he should have been ahead - bad if not.

Even it would have been very interesting how this would have worked out if Alonso would have been behind Felipe after second stop (which should have been the case anyway not considering the tires which are not directly responsible for the change of positions) as Felipe lead the race speed trap classification by far against Alonso (only 15th) (and 2010 has shown it matters on the straight). Could have been interesting ... as Alonso didn't made a sign to overtake Felipe when he closed the gap after 1st pit stop.

All I want to say: it was a failure yes. But this failure wasn't provoked to bring Alonso ahead of Felipe - imho ... If really required there would have been more reliable ways to do so especially as we don't need to hide it anymore.

But as I said before in other thread: if everything is going well you will also make decisions which are right. But when you're not convinced in yourself you're making also more silly failures and decisions ...

[Greig]

WoW!!

We seem to have gone from no one is bigger than the team to
crucifying them for "ruining" Massa's race based on a decision
that was made in a split second!

A touch dramatic maybe? Nobody is crucifying anybody and the pitstop was not done in a split second decision.

Also I must have missed the no one is bigger than the team debate that we went from?

[wisepie]

Even just watching from my armchair, I assumed they'd put softs on Felipe's 2nd stop, so hindsight doesn't come into it, it was a no-brainer, surely, and deprived Felipe of a better result....again.

[Kingdom Hearts]

The press is really stupid sometimes.

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option...:f1&Itemid=157

No polemics this weekend, we will try to create one for you.

[Greig]

LOL what a terrible "news" story.

[Fer138]

The press is really stupid sometimes.

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option...:f1&Itemid=157

No polemics this weekend, we will try to create one for you.

Absolutely, making something where there is nothing. Must be a really slow news week.

Another take of the incident, which I thought funny and done in good humour. Now we know what Fernando is up to when he is not driving in f1
http://www.formula1blog.com/formula-...-in-abu-dhabi/

[Sonic Feathers]

It's just what all the teams do to gift advantage as it has been painfully obvious if we look at RB, one moment SV & MW are on a par almost taking each other out, then choice driver is chosen after that (in most occasions) it was MW clutch that prevented good starts, slow/problem pit stops, mechanical or electrical issues. (Yes SV had his alternator issues but that was possibly a surprise to Horner). As to the Scuderia, FM has had many a wrongly timed 'box' call & also couldn't get his tyres working yet they did better on FAs car in the beginning of last year & the beginning of this year. Why? So a points advantage is established & then no 2 must back no 1 from there on out. Often FM has been called in early or late & this changed the outcome of his race adversely (yes is sometimes happens with FA as well -i.e. pit wall bad judgement call at that point. At Mc 2012 JB also was derailed more often than LH, which is why they had their on track spat. I believe it is one of the reasons FA left Mc 'cos the were diminishing his true ability in favour of the then glory-kid. I assume then that Team Orders are not the only way to affect any teams outcome in a race, e.g. you can glorify your preferred driver over his team mate & say "Woops! We called his stop too early or he had clutch issues". Would Porsche really want to sign a retarded grid starter? It isn't parity or 'sporting' but in a sport is notorious for weighing options & still do it in public as they can get away with it & blame circumstance. Imagine MW or FM frustration at never having a fair chance to totally shine unless if you shine by protecting a team mates' position to the flag or by bedeviling the mates race to favour an opposition team. Other drivers also had similar ...
e.g. (not said to irk FA loyalists, I am a loyal Ferrari supporter who back both our drivers) but re-look at Monaco quali FM was on a magic lap, at the pit entrance he had to get off it & had to start further down than his time would have allowed. Why? There was a slowing Ferrari in the way entering the pit. Nothing was said as FM just sucks up all his adverse circumstance & gets on with it with a smile (unless LH is concerned). Imagine whinging to to the stewards that your team mate scuppered your time! Nup,
manipulations in every facit of F1 exist. If you are not the chosen one, then you are there to support the chosen one & score but score less on points than him.
It's going to be interesting 2014, I doubt KR is going to acquiesce in the same manner.
I pray that LdM is right that we can still accomplish 2nd in WCC this year.

[sagi58]

A touch dramatic maybe? Nobody is crucifying anybody and the pitstop was not done in a split second decision.

Also I must have missed the no one is bigger than the team debate that we went from?

A touch dramatic? Possibly; but, then again, I wouldn't be the first to don that particular cape!

We've had the "no one is bigger than the team" comments made over and again regarding Alonso
and recently about Kimi! I just find it "sweet" that Massa fans seem to think his race is being
jeopardized for Alonso when in fact, there is nothing to be gained from it as the WDC is done!

And, please, don't read anything into that other than I appreciate and respect Massa!!

[sagi58]

The press is really stupid sometimes.

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option...:f1&Itemid=157

No polemics this weekend, we will try to create one for you.

You would have to assume that the reporter writing this "article" hasn't ever had any sort of sports injury!!
If they'd had one, they'd know that you feel worse the day after!!

[Greig]

A touch dramatic? Possibly; but, then again, I wouldn't be the first to don that particular cape!

We've had the "no one is bigger than the team" comments made over and again regarding Alonso
and recently about Kimi! I just find it "sweet" that Massa fans seem to think his race is being
jeopardized for Alonso when in fact, there is nothing to be gained from it as the WDC is done!

And, please, don't read anything into that other than I appreciate and respect Massa!!

Could you show me these no one is bigger than the team debates about Alonso and Kimi please?

I have not see anyone say Massa's race was jeopardized to help Alonso either? Maybe you can show me them as well as above?

Or is this another one of those posts where you make up what people are saying just to have another little dig at Massa fans....yeah that would be it.

[Forzi]

All I want to say: it was a failure yes. But this failure wasn't provoked to bring Alonso ahead of Felipe - imho ... If really required there would have been more reliable ways to do so especially as we don't need to hide it anymore.

Would have been fun to see if both went for the softs, Fernando having them fresher and closing in to Felipe. Doesn't matter if Felipe had pushed the mediums and ended up in front of Fernando who got out with softs. Softs were estimated to be 1,5 sec faster than the mediums. Straight line speed would not matter much since softs let you get out of the corner faster, accelerate faster and stop faster. In either way, behind or in front, Fernando would have passed Felipe with the obviously better strategy that Felipe should have easily carried out also.

Just to make a point, i don't care if Ferrari did this intentionally or not. Was irritated at first since i lost a bottle of beer to someone i don't like loosing too, but now i don't care really. But at that point in the race it was rather obvious what tires should be chosen. Absolutely no gamble intended, seeing how the first stint went. And i dear to say, the team acted simply too stupidly and aimlessly in a obvious situation, that's why i'm having a hard time to believe they did not intend to get Fernando in front. No disrespect to the team of course.

[Suzie]

WoW!!

We seem to have gone from no one is bigger than the team to
crucifying them for "ruining" Massa's race based on a decision
that was made in a split second!

Over-reacting, much?

The team has been subject to plenty of criticism regarding Fernando's strategies also in the past. So I fail to get your point

[ManFromMilan]

Over-reacting, much?

The team has been subject to plenty of criticism regarding Fernando's strategies also in the past. So I fail to get your point

Easy to get the point when Fernando, personally, is so easily criticized for his fans' overzealous jumping to conclusions.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Greig]

Easy to get the point when Fernando, personally, is so easily criticized for his fans' overzealous jumping to conclusions.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

What?

[brembo man]

Please gander at this, I for one can't blame the drivers for not finishing better than 5th and 8th last race. Unless it's actually them calling to the pit for there chioce of tire, and when to change. Both Alonso and Massa are dong all they can do with what they have with the team.

[Poltergeistes]

A touch dramatic? Possibly; but, then again, I wouldn't be the first to don that particular cape!

We've had the "no one is bigger than the team" comments made over and again regarding Alonso
and recently about Kimi! I just find it "sweet" that Massa fans seem to think his race is being
jeopardized for Alonso when in fact, there is nothing to be gained from it as the WDC is done!

And, please, don't read anything into that other than I appreciate and respect Massa!!

Sagi, i think the Massa fans are not really thinking it's being jeopardized for the benefit of fernando, i even mentioned it in a post, i dont think that at this point fernando will have a seizure if felipe finishes one race in front of him, he is not like that.

the point here is wether ferrari doesnt want to give fans reasons to not support and be critical of the swap between felipe and kimi, because at this point if we look at the entire season, there's no reason to crucify felipe for somethin that is not really his fault.

the first half of the season the car was ok but not as fast to challenge the rebull, only to fight with mercedes and lotus, the summer break comes, an the car goes from that to unmanageable, you see both drivers struggling to keep it up with lotus, i been saying since then, if a driver like fernando( clearly the best of this generetion) couldn't even catch grosjean no matter how much he tried all races, then there's no doubt it's the car and not the drivers.

I'm a felipe fan, an i will be the first to admit that, if he has a good car he is a contender, but if not he isn't, and from 2007 to 2009 kimi proved he is just as good as felipe but without the will.

all along this 4 years, fernando has been putting this car where it doesn't really belong, not just the car, but our strategy needs to improve, even on that fernando can make up for.

if we have a good and competitive car next season, kimi can give alonso a run for his money, just like i beleive felipe could, but god forbid we still have a car that is an underdog, fernando is likely to dominate.

the problem i see (an even felipe said it so to stefano when he was told he wasn't staying) felipe is a nice guy, he takes the orders, he doesn't have that typical driver attitude (maybe thats why he hasn't done better) kimi, will be on the radio and acting so different if he is put in the same position next season, an everyone will be mad here, IF the scenario is the same as he was put on 2009 with felipe, the lack of motivation and care from him.

this is why i think 2 weeks before ferrari announcing felipe's exit, stefano was saying he wanted felipe to stay, he knows if kimi does this, stefano's head will be the next to roll. ( which i wont like cause i really like him, he is a good a guy, he tries to be fair)

my bet is that Brawn is seeing this, an he will be on his sabbath, if the car isn't a winner next season, brawn will come back.