Red Bull’s traction secret revealed?

[FrankAlfa]

Well, as an Engineer, the the only "Advantage" to be Gleamed is one from the "Letter of The Rules". The advantage is from he who produces the most "Super Tuned" Design in keeping within the "Limits" of the written Rules and is able to excel the race car! This hold true for EVERY SPORT! It is like taking a Gun to a Sword fight and being allowed to use the gun!

Lets take this one step further by example : The Rules Ban Traction Control in ALL its forms so Traction Control in all of its forms CAN NOT BE USED on the race car. But the Rules do allow for "Specific" advancements in the Engine design to afford greater efficiency of the engine of of say the combustion chamber and intake process, etc.. This is permitted by the Rules and in doing so these are the areas to Advance and "Super Tune".
To deliberatly go out of your way, as Red Bull have done and be allowed to do it, to employ something that is strictly "Banned" on the race car is Cheating and goes against the Rules in all its Written & Unwritten Intent. I give many more examples if you like. The main breach here is in the Breaking of The Rules by the Red Team by using "Traction Control" and the FIA allowing this with no penalty.

[F2002]

Well, as an Engineer, the the only "Advantage" to be Gleamed is one from the "Letter of The Rules". The advantage is from he who produces the most "Super Tuned" Design in keeping within the "Limits" of the written Rules and is able to excel the race car! This hold true for EVERY SPORT! It is like taking a Gun to a Sword fight and being allowed to use the gun!

Lets take this one step further by example : The Rules Ban Traction Control in ALL its forms so Traction Control in all of its forms CAN NOT BE USED on the race car. But the Rules do allow for "Specific" advancements in the Engine design to afford greater efficiency of the engine of of say the combustion chamber and intake process, etc.. This is permitted by the Rules and in doing so these are the areas to Advance and "Super Tune".
To deliberatly go out of your way, as Red Bull have done and be allowed to do it, to employ something that is strictly "Banned" on the race car is Cheating and goes against the Rules in all its Written & Unwritten Intent. I give many more examples if you like. The main breach here is in the Breaking of The Rules by the Red Team by using "Traction Control" and the FIA allowing this with no penalty.

Great stuff Frank, thanks.

Who knows whether a "super tuned" car can deliver a full second's worth of lap time advantage?

[Dino]

If only Mark Webber would start to talk about all this,especially as it seems he was not getting this [huge advantage] on his car !!

Giancarlo Minardi at the Singapore Grand Prix at Marina Bay Circuit.
“It’s not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull in the best way,” he told his website.

“I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during the three day event,” Minardi explained.


Is there a form of traction control on Sebastian Vettel’s Red Bull RB9?

He said he is concerned that, while only just ahead of the likes of Lotus’ Romain Grosjean and Mercedes’ Nico Rosberg in the pre-race sessions, the reason for Vettel’s subsequent dominance at key moments on Sunday is “not clear”.

Referring to the stretch leading into the first chicane, Minardi said Vettel was able to negotiate it “without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals and also his teammate” Mark Webber.

“His laptime was also remarkable in T3, which is the track’s sector with the highest concentration of corners,” he added. ”On the same stretch, Sebastian was able to speed up 50 metres before any other driver, Webber included.”

But the handling of the Red Bull was not the only thing troubling Minardi, ”The thing that surprised me the most was the engine’s sound.”

“It sounded like none of the other Renault engines on track, including Mark’s. It sounded similar to the engines in past seasons when traction control went into action.

“Furthermore, that sound was only heard when Vettel chalked up his excellent performances,” added Minardi. “For example, after the safety car went in. In those moments it was more powerful (sounding) than any other engines — Renault and the other brands.

“I would like to have some answers,” he continued. “I don’t want to blame anyone, I just want to get to the bottom of it.” (GMM)

[Hermann]

Well good luck in trying to get to that bottom. Many have tried, all have failed.

Asking Webber to reveal some secrets is about the same as asking Fernando about what really happened at Macca in 2007. Thats the F1 version of omerta.

[F2002]

it seems he was not getting this [huge advantage] on his car !!

According to stories doing the rounds on the web:

Either
i. RBR have withheld the technology from Webber in order to explicitly favour Vettel, especially after their on-track clashes (which we haven't really seen lately);

or
ii. RBR have decided that it's not worth sharing the details of this technology with Webber, who was leaving at the end of the season anyhow;

or
iii. RBR decided that it was not worth spending the money to implement the technology on two cars, because it knew that it could win both championships anyway;

or
iv. There is a difference in the way the two drivers prefer to set up their car, with Webber preferring a car that moves around allowing him to feel his way in and around corners

[Hermann]

3+4 are the most likely reasons, 1 i don't think so (because Webber would not have stayed that long in the team in that case), and 2. could be true for 2013 but not for the last 4 years.

I'd go for point 4 because there have been some races where Webber was faster than Vettel, if i remember that correctly.

[Dino]

Inside Tech – Svelato il segreto della RB9: ecco a voi il primo TC completamente legale


Scritto da
Roberto Valenti
– 27 novembre 2013Categorie: Formula 1, Inside Tech, Rubriche

Le prestazioni assolutamente strepitose della RB9 hanno destato più di qualche sospetto all’interno del circus della Formula Uno. Giancarlo Minardi, subito dopo il Gran Premio di Singapore, aveva lanciato una vera e propria bomba, che riguardava un presunto controllo di trazione installato nella Red Bull di Sebastian Vettel. Questa analisi derivava dal fatto che la vettura del tedesco emetteva un suono davvero strano in fase di accelerazione, un suono simile a un taglio di potenza. Ovviamente questa indiscrezione è stata amplificata e durante gli ultimi mesi si è cercato di capire che tipo di diavoleria aveva messo in atto Adrian Newey. Dopo l’ipotesi del taglio dei cilindri motore grazie alla sensibilità di Vettel, nella giornata di ieri il noto giornale “Austosprint” ha lanciato una vera e propria bomba che riguarda la vettura del quattro volte Campione del Mondo. Durante il finale di questa stagione la RB9 ha mostrato una trazione davvero pazzesca e, nella maggior parte dei casi, questa trazione consentiva al tedesco di infliggere pesanti distacchi anche in settori relativamente brevi.

Cosa si nasconde dietro questo dominio davvero imbarazzante? Ve lo spieghiamo subito. Qualche mese fa, in occasione del Gran Premio del Canada, la Red Bull (in collaborazione con la Renault) aveva cominciato a lavorare su un sistema in grado di gestire il pattinamento delle gomme (articolo). Un Traction Control che risultasse però legale agli occhi della Federazione. Proprio Motorsport Italia nel post GP aveva fatto notare uno strano andamento delle strisce gommate della vettura di Webber dopo un contatto con una Caterham. Lo scopo del sistema era quello di ovviare ai problemi dovuti alle mescole con carcassa in acciaio, cercando di trovare la miglior trazione possibile e di risolvere alcuni problemi legati al consumo delle gomme. Con il ritorno alla carcassa in kevlar la Renault aveva un pò abbandonato questo progetto, salvo poi riprenderlo in maniera abbastanza pesante nel post Gran Premio d’Ungheria. Una macchina aerodinamicamente perfetta, che non riusciva però a gestire nella maniera ottimale le mescole Pirelli, un fattore a cui la casa francese ha prestato tantissima attenzione durante la pausa estiva.

Al rientro, precisamente dal Gran Premio del Belgio, la Red Bull è risultata letteralmente imbattibile. Coincidenze? Non proprio.La prima applicazione pratica di questo sistema è avvenuta durante il Gran Premio di Singapore e i risultati, come ben sappiamo, sono stati davvero superlativi. La domanda è: come funziona questa ennesima diavoleria di Newey & Company? La RB9 sfrutta sia il ritardo di accensione, sia certe funzioni della cambiata. Tant’è vero che i passaggi di marcia del tedesco sono molto più rapidi rispetto a quelli degli altri piloti dello schieramento. L’uso dell’acceleratore della RB9 inganna l’elettronica del motore che, ovviamente, reagisce tagliando la potenza. L’elettronica avverte l’anomalia come una differenza eccessiva fra l’apertura della farfalla e la coppia erogata. Questo sistema, sfruttando anche la lunghezza delle cambiate, permetterebbe di tagliare i cilindri e quindi generare una trazione davvero spaventosa. Probabilmente in qualche modo entra in funzione anche la frizione, rimanendo sempre nei limiti della legalità. Giancarlo Minardi ci aveva quindi visto giusto quando nel post GP di Singapore aveva gettato il sasso nello stagno della RB.



Questo sistema spiegherebbe quindi il borbottio della RB9 del tedesco durante il Gran Premio di Singapore. Secondo Alberto Antonini, nella telemetria di Vettel questo “particolare” sarebbe ben evidente visto e considerato che nelle accelerazioni in uscita dalle curve, la coppia e la potenza del motore subiscono un brusco taglio, particolare che permette alla Red Bull di non sbandare in fase di uscita. Si spiega quindi il motivo della trazione perfetta della Red Bull durante le ultime qualifiche bagnate di Interlagos. Mentre i vari Hamilton, Rosberg, Alonso e Webber remavano contro la propria vettura all’uscita della S Senna, Vettel riusciva a gestire in maniera ottimale la propria vettura. Come mai il numero 2 della Red Bull non ha sfruttato questo sistema? Per una pura questione di stile di guida. L’australiano gradisce dei rapporti che stonano con la composizione del sistema. Non stiamo parlando di un semplice TC perchè all’interno della vettura non sono presenti sensori, ma di una serie di passaggi che permettono di riprodurre il suo effetto. Usando una terminologia moderna potremmo definirlo un Virtual TC perchè, materialmente, non lascia traccia all’interno della macchina.

Agli occhi del Regolamento tutto questo processo risulta regolare visto e considerato che la trazione è generata da un’avaria del sistema. Anche la stessa Ferrari è a conoscenza di tutto ma, come tante altre scuderie, non riesce ancora a capire come il motore Renault riesca a replicare questo effetto. Da notare che questo sistema potrebbe tornare molto utile durante la prossima stagione quando, per ovvi motivi, bisognerà gestire l’enorme coppia generata da propulsore turbo. Un colpo davvero magistrale del duo Renault/Red Bull che potrebbe regalare a Vettel una super vettura anche la prossima stagione. Che dire, siamo davanti all’ennesimo colpo di genio in casa Red Bull. Come finirà tutta questa storia? Non si sa, ma resta il fatto che la casa di Milton Keynes potrebbe godere di un enorme vantaggio anche la prossima stagione. Come sempre i Regolamenti della FIA chiudono porte e aprono letteralmente dei portoni.


Inside Tech - Revealed the secret of RB9 : here is the first TC completely legal


written by
Roberto Valenti
- November 27, 2013Categorie : Formula 1 , Inside Tech Categories

The performance of the absolutely amazing RB9 have raised more than a few suspect inside the circus of Formula One. Giancarlo Minardi , just after the Singapore Grand Prix , had launched a real bomb , which concerned an alleged traction control installed in the Red Bull of Sebastian Vettel. This analysis stemmed from the fact that the car of the German delivered a really strange sound when accelerating , a sound similar to a power cut . Obviously this indiscretion was amplified and in the last few months we have tried to understand what kind of mischief he had put in place Adrian Newey . After the hypothesis of the cutting cylinder engine due to the sensitivity of Vettel, yesterday the famous newspaper " Austosprint " launched a real bomb that covers the car 's four-time World Champion. During the final this season the RB9 showed a really crazy traction and , in most cases , this traction allowed the German inflict heavy detachments even in areas relatively short .

What lies behind this domain really embarrassing ? Allow us to explain . A few months ago , at the Canadian Grand Prix , Red Bull (in collaboration with Renault ) had begun to work on a system that can handle the spinning of the tires (see article) . A Traction Control , however, that might be legal in the eyes of the Federation. Just Motorsport Italy in the post GP had noted a strange trend in rubber strips Webber 's car after a collision with a Caterham . The purpose of the system was to overcome the problems due to compounds with steel casing , trying to find the best possible traction and solve some problems related to tire wear . With the return to the carcass kevlar Renault had a little abandoned this project , only to resume it in a fairly heavy post in the Hungarian Grand Prix . A car aerodynamically perfect , but he could not manage in the best way the Pirelli compounds , a factor to which the French company has paid a lot of attention during the summer break.

In return , specifically from the Belgian Grand Prix , Red Bull was literally unbeatable. Coincidence ? Not proprio.La first practical application of this system took place during the Singapore Grand Prix and the results , as we know , they were really superb. The question is: how does this latest devilry Newey & Company? The RB9 leverages both the ignition delay , and certain functions of shifting. So much so that the gear changes of the German are much faster than those of the other drivers on the grid. The use of accelerator RB9 deceives the engine electronics which, obviously, reacts by cutting off the power . The electronics warns the anomaly as an excessive difference between the throttle opening and the torque delivered . This system , using the length of the change , would cut the cylinders and then generate a traction really scary . Probably somehow comes into operation the clutch , while remaining within the bounds of legality. Giancarlo Minardi there had therefore been right when, in the Singapore Grand Prix after he had thrown the cat among the pigeons of the RB .



This system would explain then the hum of the German RB9 during the Singapore Grand Prix . According to Alberto Antonini , telemetry Vettel in this "special " would be evident considering that when accelerating out of corners , the torque and power of the engine undergo an abrupt cut, particularly that allows you to Red Bull for not being skid output . This explains the reason for perfect traction of Red Bull during the last wet qualifying at Interlagos . While the various Hamilton , Rosberg , Alonso and Webber rowed against his car at the exit of the Senna S , Vettel was able to optimally manage their car . Why is the number 2 of the Red Bull has not taken advantage of this system? For a pure question of driving style. The Australian likes of relationships that clash with the composition of the system. We're not talking about a simple TC inside the car because there are no sensors , but a series of steps that allow you to play its effect. Using modern terminology we would call a Virtual CT because , physically , it leaves no trace inside the machine.

In the eyes of the Rules of this whole process is regular considering that the traction is generated by a fault in the system. Even the Ferrari itself is aware of everything, but , like so many other teams , still can not understand how the Renault engine is able to replicate this effect. Note that this system could be very useful during the next season when , for obvious reasons , we must handle the huge torque generated by the engine turbo . A truly masterful shot of the duo Renault / Red Bull Vettel could give a super car next season . What can I say , we are faced with yet another stroke of genius in the house Red Bull. How will all this? It is not known , but the fact remains that the house of Milton Keynes could enjoy a huge advantage next season . As always, the Regulations of the FIA literally open doors and close the doors .

http://formulaoneitalia.altervista.o...amente-legale/

[F2002]

3+4 are the most likely reasons, 1 i don't think so (because Webber would not have stayed that long in the team in that case), and 2. could be true for 2013 but not for the last 4 years.

I'd go for point 4 because there have been some races where Webber was faster than Vettel, if i remember that correctly.

Yes, 4 for me as well. Perhaps Webber wasn't the sacrificial lamb we all think he was after all, though truth to be told, he always suffered all the technical failures.

[Senna4Ever]

from german motorsport-total.com
translated by Google ...

Ferrari era : Newey had almost resigned

In his long career Newey was by his own admission only once on the verge pack the drawing board and to leave the Formula 1 . " That was about 2002 ," said the Briton recalls. "At that time seemed all so much politics - Ferrari and the FIA - it was quite a difficult time . "

In fact Newey experienced after his world titles with Mika Häkkinen at McLaren end of the 1990s a roughly decade-long dry spell , before 2010 led Red Bull to success. From 2000 to 2004 had Michael Schumacher and Ferrari Formula 1 dominated at will - the star designer was not really happy at McLaren .

To break the Ferrari dominance , Newey was at that time even over the limit: The best proof is the legendary McLaren MP4 -18 from 2003 , which did not work as desired and never made it to the race honors. Her follow-up model MP4 -19A for the 2004 season was not particularly successful . " Ferrari has won everything at that time , and we had the feeling that we need to take a big step - or at least have to push , so we take a big step ," Newey looks back . "We've made ​​the mistake too hard to push . We have pushed so hard that we have neglected our homework. "

damn it ...
would have solved our actual problem if we would have been a bit more cruel to him in the beginning 00 years ...
where is my flux compensator ... ;)

also interesting

Newey should have known , after all, like it was already once before in his career happened - in March . And oddly enough, reminded the MP4 -18 also visually in approaches to his Leyton House March cars. Already during the 1988 - March , the then aspiring designers had focused on aerodynamic to use the underbody to generate more downforce . In 1989, he overdid it then : "The car was just too complicated for the size of the team - and our experience this I have learned - but only partly..."