How good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Hermann]

Webber was the better driver when the car was not what Vettel was used to- no rocketship. And to be better than Bourdais-

[F2002]

After 5 full seasons in F1 and 3 world titles, the answer is he's better than Bourdais and Webber...

Bourdais lol

[Senna4Ever]

Is obviously a good driver ... no doubt! Otherwise he would not be there. But he is also not special. He didn't impress me much in his Toro Rosso years. Beside of good results he also had some difficulties. For example Bourdais had a much better start in the season of 2008 - and then he got more and more in trouble with Mr. Marko. And it is not good for your career when you start to mess with Marko. Every Austrian driver has to consider that.
And his best drives Vettel had with Toro Rosso car was in wet conditions too (Fuji, Shanghai, Monza). And the Toro Rosso wasn't a bad car either in 2008- compared to RedBull ... btw. does anybody know who designed the Toro Rosso car from 2008 season? It

It seems that Vettel needs a special behavior of the car to be very quick. If this isn't the case he is beatable. Webber has shown it in the beginning of the season where he was quiet ahead of Vettel. And if some of very doubtful race strategy would not have punished him he would have been quiet closer this year.

Funny is for me, that all the drivers from RB 'academy' have failed - except Vettel who is doubtless Markos #1 darling.

I would like to see that after championship has ended the top 10 drivers meet at a track which was not part of the actual season and they have to switch the car (like a car lottery) ... or each gets the same car i.e. Formel BMW or equal ...
and they have 3 days of testing and then it gets tough: one free practice, qualifying and the race ...

But much more I wonder that this is discussed in the Forza Ferrari Forum ;)

[Hermann]

I guess there is nothing wrong with discussing this here because it might very well be Vettel will drive for Ferrari one day. So it must be of interest.

The Ferrari is a different beast. Being a good driver might not be enough here. So far, Vettel has brought no proof he can do wonders in a car he is struggling with, Fernando did, he had a lot of opportunity to prove that. On the other hand, we saw Vettel being outqualified by his 'mediocre' team mate quite often this year. And no doubt, the Ferrari bosses have seen that too. I wish i was a mouse and could hear what they really say about him!

[Massimo]

Is obviously a good driver ... no doubt! Otherwise he would not be there. But he is also not special. He didn't impress me much in his Toro Rosso years. Beside of good results he also had some difficulties. For example Bourdais had a much better start in the season of 2008 - and then he got more and more in trouble with Mr. Marko. And it is not good for your career when you start to mess with Marko. Every Austrian driver has to consider that.
And his best drives Vettel had with Toro Rosso car was in wet conditions too (Fuji, Shanghai, Monza). And the Toro Rosso wasn't a bad car either in 2008- compared to RedBull ... btw. does anybody know who designed the Toro Rosso car from 2008 season? It

It seems that Vettel needs a special behavior of the car to be very quick. If this isn't the case he is beatable. Webber has shown it in the beginning of the season where he was quiet ahead of Vettel. And if some of very doubtful race strategy would not have punished him he would have been quiet closer this year.

Funny is for me, that all the drivers from RB 'academy' have failed - except Vettel who is doubtless Markos #1 darling.

I would like to see that after championship has ended the top 10 drivers meet at a track which was not part of the actual season and they have to switch the car (like a car lottery) ... or each gets the same car i.e. Formel BMW or equal ...
and they have 3 days of testing and then it gets tough: one free practice, qualifying and the race ...

But much more I wonder that this is discussed in the Forza Ferrari Forum ;)

Torro Rosso 2008? Newey did.

[Hermann]

Torro Rosso 2008? Newey did.

Where would Vettel be without him.....

[Senna4Ever]

I guess there is nothing wrong with discussing this here

Sorry, my mistake I just saw this discussion in an other part of this forum as it is about formula uno ... that's what I wanted to express.

because it might very well be Vettel will drive for Ferrari one day

And this day might not come as long as I live ... and I hopefully live a long time from now on ... ;)
He is a good driver but not Ferrari style ... i wrote a few days ago ...

Torro Rosso 2008? Newey did.

;) I had that in mind but was not sure for 100%. So thank you sir for answering.

[wisepie]

Of course he must be good but no better than any of the other top drivers out there, the car delivered everywhere and starting on pole or thereabouts was usually easy for him. Give him an F2012 and he'd look like a beginner next to Fernando and probably Felipe too. I really hope that he doesn't drive for Ferrari any time soon, although I suppose I'd come round eventually if it happened.

[R Ginart]

Vettel is a good driver in a extraordinary car.
Alonso is an extraordinary driver in a good car.

Yeap! well said!

[Rishu]

When people compare Vettel to Alonso, important point is that Alonso is 31 & is peaking his talent, we shall see how Vettel goes when he reaches this age. I think Vettel is definitely good but atm, there are some drivers better than him. Lewis, Felipe & Fernando for sure....


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[varun]

Here's how good he is afterall...
SORE LOSER....

[R Ginart]

Guys, I know that it is difficult to digest, but as much as we wanted Alonso to win the championships in 2010 and this year, we have to admit that ultimately Vettel won, quickest car or not.

It is very rare in Formula One to find a driver who won the WDC without having had the best machinery, case in point is the fact that, in another thread polling the most crucial factor for a future Ferrari victory, most people on this forum are saying "Wind Tunnel". In short, give Alonso a quicker car and he'll deliver, but will other people be saying the same thing about him then? - that he won because he had the quicker car?

@R Ginart, your post ignores two crucial elements: first, the fact that Vettel did not have the most reliable car. Had his car been more reliable, he would have won the championship earlier, with or without Alonso's crashes. Second, if you look at the data, you'll see that the relative performance of cars got closer this season, which is the other reason why Vettel was not able to run away with the championship. On form, he unquestionably won four races in a row, and on two other occasions, climbed from last to a points-scoring position.

He certainly is not the most likable bloke around, however we need to admit that he is a very good driver and, in my books, has three very well-deserved world championships under his belt. Other people with similar cars weren't able to do what he did.

We also need to be careful how we judge him, because if the rumours linking him to a Ferrari seat turn out to be true, some of us will be changing their avatars to a pointy finger.

I beg to differ: hence 2011, the RB car was nearly one second faster than any other on the field. Giving that most GPs are about 65 laps or more, thats ONE full second per lap on the rest of the field. Clearly that was ALL car and very little driver. POLE, DRIVE OFF into the sunset at the start, and FINISH nearly 60 seconds ahead of P2.

[fratelliferrari]

Yes i always got the feeling Vettel hasn't got a lot of respect for colleague drivers!

[FFFerrari]

The best driver of the fastest car usually wins. This has been true for so many years in the past. Looking at this millenium:

During the golden years of Schumacher era, his car was usually head and shoulders better than competition. Yes, McLaren did get close but usually failed because of reliability problems. 2005, the year that Fernando won his first title was one of the rare years you could say that the fastest car didn't win. McLaren was quick, but had issues, Renault was quick but had issues. In the end the problems at start of the season ultimately cost McLaren the title, also not using a #1/#2 driver did chip in. 2006 one can argue, but atleast most of the season the Renault was the best car around and McLaren did chip in a bit to mess around with the battle between Michael and Fernando.

2007 McLaren was the fastest car, no doubt, but the internal fighting caused them to loose in the end and also gave the best driver of the grid a chance to make a huge comeback. 2008, we had the fastest car but in the end not having a #1/#2 setting while McLaren had one gave us one of the most heartbreaking losses ever. 2009, the first part of the season Brawn had a rocket ship, at the end of the season they and RBR had rocket ships. The early bird got the title. 2010, the situation wasn't exactly clear, the mantle of the fastest car got tossed around the season with four drivers from three different teams ending up really close to each other in he championship. You can make a case for RBR who had two drivers on the top instead of McL and us. 2011 is clear and in 2012 we know that the first half of the season was really varied with a lot of teams coming up with wins and in the end RBR had the fastest car (and ended up with the title).

So during these 13 years, the fastest or the second fastest car had given the driver the championship. Does that mean that the drivers that win the championship in the fastest car aren't great drivers? The only one I can argue of these is Jenson Button who really faltered in the second part of 2009 while having amazing car but winning thanks to the advantage in the first part of the season. Also, comparing drivers is like comparing ice cream flavors, everyone has their favourite but ice cream is generally sweet and tasty. That is why I'm a fan of team, not a single driver. I love red ice cream. :xmasbiggrin:

[SS454]

Seems silly to try and discredit him. If he was driving for Ferrari and winning 3 championships, we'd all say he was the greatest in F1. IMO, this thread is discrediting Alonso's abilities as well. Its obvious Ferrari vs a much better Red Bull, but I like to believe that Alonso is facing a much great level of competition than just a "good driver" in Vettel. I for one think he is one of, if not the fastest driver in F1 in terms of outright raw pace. But that doesn't make him the best in F1 as he doesn't have the complete package.

[F2002]

I beg to differ: hence 2011, the RB car was nearly one second faster than any other on the field. Giving that most GPs are about 65 laps or more, thats ONE full second per lap on the rest of the field. Clearly that was ALL car and very little driver. POLE, DRIVE OFF into the sunset at the start, and FINISH nearly 60 seconds ahead of P2.

Perhaps you underestimate what is involved to drive a Formula One car for 65 laps at that level.

[FA fan]

Well I think he is a good driver,but is he as good to deserve 3 WDC?? No he does not!! But he is only 25,so maybe he has not peaked yet!! But I would rate him as the 3rd best driver,Alonso and Lewis drove better than him!!

[Hermann]

Hamilton did not have a good year i'd say, understandable though under the circumstances, with Button and Whitmarsh starting some partying he wasn't invited to. But as much as i actually don't like him- i would agree that he is the better driver.

[radosav]

Well I think he is a good driver,but is he as good to deserve 3 WDC?? No he does not!! But he is only 25,so maybe he has not peaked yet!! But I would rate him as the 3rd best driver,Alonso and Lewis drove better than him!!

Hm,Vettel hasn't peaked yet! I was Schumi fan until 2005 when i started to cheer for Fernando because i saw in him what I liked in Schumi!
He was fast, aggressive ,with great racecraft and so mature on track. He didn't make beginer mistakes.
I can't speak about Fernando's maturity off track, but on track he was like a machine.
He drove like that in 2006 and 2007 too, which is equivalent of Vettel's last three years cause Fernando was very young too, only 24 years when he won first title.

[Muhammad Ansib]

How good Sebestian vettel really is?
Well the day he wins a race while starting from below p3 on the grid is the day he will earn my respect.btw there were few bad-not clean overtakes in Abudhabi eg senna and hitting the DRS sign LOL...

[R Ginart]

Perhaps you underestimate what is involved to drive a Formula One car for 65 laps at that level.

Perhaps you underestimate how easy it is to be 40-60 seconds ahead of the field when one can conserve tires, fuel and car, while everyone else behind is trashing their cars and tires just in trying to catch up. Not to mention how preassure-free pit stops are.

[Tifoso]

Perhaps you underestimate how easy it is to be 40-60 seconds ahead of the field when one can conserve tires, fuel and car, while everyone else behind is trashing their cars and tires just in trying to catch up. Not to mention how preassure-free pit stops are.

Yup

[mark p]

40 odd seconds ahead easy? He's very very good. If it's the car he's still good as a team wants to maximize every detail and wouldnt put a muppet in there. He is a great rival for Ferrari so will be even sweeter when Ferrari beat him. The difference between the top drivers is tiny and impossible to say but I believe Alonso is better and am happy Ferrari have him.

[Tifoso]

40 odd seconds ahead easy? He's very very good. If it's the car he's still good as a team wants to maximize every detail and wouldnt put a muppet in there. He is a great rival for Ferrari so will be even sweeter when Ferrari beat him. The difference between the top drivers is tiny and impossible to say but I believe Alonso is better and am happy Ferrari have him.

Alonso is the best, and by a pretty good margin. No one is perfect, obviously.

[Italian Spirit]

Vettel is a good driver in a extraordinary car.
Alonso is an extraordinary driver in a good car.

Just for the sake of discussion... MS 5 WDC were won in an extraordinary car, so how can we affirm that he was an extraordinary driver? In a below-average car he was systematically trashed (during three entire years!) by his team mate who, in the same below-average car, even managed to win a GP; Schumi managed to create accidents and a one point he even became dangerous to other drivers.
Just to say...
Comunque, Buon Natale caro Massimo! :xmassmile:

[Tifoso]

Just for the sake of discussion... MS 5 WDC were won in an extraordinary car, so how can we affirm that he was an extraordinary driver? In a below-average car he was systematically trashed (during three entire years!) by his team mate who, in the same below-average car, even managed to win a GP; Schumi managed to create accidents and a one point he even became dangerous to other drivers.
Just to say...
Comunque, Buon Natale caro Massimo! :xmassmile:

F1 2000 and F2003GA were not as far ahead of the competition (I think it can be argued that they were
behind in many races) as the RB's are now. The other Schumi Ferrari title winners: sure.

[brembo man]

Just for the sake of discussion... MS 5 WDC were won in an extraordinary car, so how can we affirm that he was an extraordinary driver? In a below-average car he was systematically trashed (during three entire years!) by his team mate who, in the same below-average car, even managed to win a GP; Schumi managed to create accidents and a one point he even became dangerous to other drivers.
Just to say...
Comunque, Buon Natale caro Massimo! :xmassmile:

Proprio quello che pensavo, lo sanno tutti!

[Tifoso]

Proprio quello che pensavo, lo sanno tutti!

Forse lo pensavi, ma sbagli

[aroutis]

I always felt that Vettel had raw talent, and he is "up there" among the top drivers. Do I believe he's right there with Alonso? Not yet. I Believe that if we wish to grade the drivers right now , it should be Alonso, Lewis, Kimi, (those two, very close together), and then Vettel.

But make no mistake, the German aims to get as close as possible to Michael, if not overtake the legend. Can he do it? I really am not sure, he definitely is not as mature as the red baron. Schumacher was at the right team at the right time, and by that I don't just mean the very fast car, but also the right people. RBR has the car (at the moment) but the people are simply... not the ones to built a world champion of the caliber of Schumacher -providing that Vettel has the potentials.

So .. How good is he? Quite good, but right now, I'd say bout #4 in the pecking order.

[albert]

michael was the best driver of his era by miles, so no matter how many titles or records vettel breaks he will never be comparable to schumacher or the true greats. greatness is about how you achieved not just what. vettel is not even the second best driver on the grid let alone best. The worst car he has ever driven was designed by newey, which says it all.