Schumacher the greatest? He's not even in my top 10 drivers of all time - Mirror

[rvenkat]

Michael Schumacher is hailed as a legend who won a staggering 91 Grands Prix.

The statistics, they say, speak volumes for his talent, speed, commitment and raw genius.

Rubbish.

How many of those wins started from grid positions outside the top three rows?

I’ll tell you.

Two.

So much for 'legendary' charges through field to remarkable glories - all but six of Schumacher's celebrated triumphs were in races which he started inside the top four!

How many of his wins were earned the way Ayrton Senna and Lewis Hamilton have earned theirs - racing against teammates of proven calibre?

Comparatively few.

Schumacher, who has announced his retirement from racing again, had one champion teammate in his entire career. And that was an ageing Nelson Piquet, close to retirement.

His Ferrari teammates, Eddie Irvine and Rubens Barrichello, were not allowed to compete on equal terms.

And I believe that makes Schumacher’s Ferrari achievements irrelevant.

At Benetton, Johnny Herbert proved so fast he was banned from seeing Schumacher’s data.

The reverse, Johnny said, was not true.

Another teammate, Jos Verstappen, has gone on record as questioning the legality of his teammate’s Benetton.

Sour grapes? Perhaps.

On the day in 2001 when Ferrari demanded Barrichello that hand over a rare victory to Schumacher, I asked the German if he wanted to win because he was the best driver or because he had the best contract.

He mumbled it was “not a fair question”.

I would rather watch real race legends, men such as Gilles Villeneuve, Hamilton or Nigel Mansell - rampant and glorious - than another sterile, questionable Schumacher-dominated season.

In real terms, Schumacher is, at best, a double champion.

I feel the other titles were a lengthy charade acted out with a superior car and subjugated teammates.

Hamilton, on 20 victories, is already nearing more REAL wins than Schumacher has achieved in his entire career.

My real sadness is that, from the glimpses we have been allowed, Schumacher may, just may, have had what it takes to join the sport’s elite.

But he was so busy taking the short-cuts that we never got a chance to judge.

And now it’s too late.

My 10 greatest drivers (of which there are 11)

1 Ayrton Senna

2 Juan Manuel Fangio

3 Jim Clark

4 Gilles Villeneuve

5 Jackie Stewart

6 Alain Prost

7 Fernando Alonso

8 Lewis Hamilton

9 Stirling Moss

10 Nigel Mansell

11 Michael Schumacher

Well, even Lewser boy hasn't won any race where he has qualified less than 4th. How is he a better driver compared to MS?

Source:http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formul...ubbish-1360656

[F2002]

The very basis of the argument is flawed I think.

Winning by 'starting in the top four' means that you have effectively qualified in the top four, and that implicitly means that you are quick. Nobody ever handed out any pole positions to Schumi as far as I can remember!

Plus, statistics confirm the (pretty intuitive) correlation between starting high up the grid and winning. Although some have managed to do it by climbing up the order from the back of the grid, that's the exception rather than the norm.

Finally, how can you even compare drivers from different eras in the same list? Cars, regulations, technologies, tracks, everything changes.

[Hornet]

The moment I saw the title of the article, I said let me guess, Lewis is his top ten. Sure enough

Just another ranting idiot who have no idea what he's ranting about.

[brembo man]

Mirrror Mirror on the wall, who was the greatest of them all? Ayrton, Ayrton !! And now? Alonso Alonso, that's who.

[SoumyaBanerjee]

And how many races has Lewis Hamilton won from outside the top 4??? A bloody ZERO....

[Ste]

The most garbage article I've ever read. Ridiculous.

[F2008]

It would have been a reasonably good article for me if he left Hamilton out of it. I like his top 10 much better than the BBC list.

[F2002]

Nothing better than a nice deviant or controversial article to attract some attention.

[Greig]

Byron Young lol he really is a poor excuse of a journalist.

[Rob]

poor poor article.

[zorro666]

Ha! Can say the same about M. Jordan, Federer & Sampras, Woods, Navratilova, S. Hendry etc etc etc etc etc.
Great Champs make it all look easy...

At the end of the day what have you done with your life that's to be remembered?
Nothing? So shut up!

Forza Ferrari

[Sianellen]

Is he actually serious? I don't think I've ever seen such a warped article before.

[SoumyaBanerjee]

I know these tabloid journalists are paid in proportion to the amount of garbage their articles contain,but this one does take it too far. No wonder he's shunned by the rest of the F1 community,and then tries to attract attention by wasting his time on creating trashy articles like these.

[Tobes]

I don't think his top 10 drivers is a bad list, most of us would have 8 or 9 ot those drivers on our own top 10 list, these things are always subjective, it's his reasons why that are somewhat questionable...

[crewskas]

The statistics, they say, speak volumes for his talent, speed, commitment and raw genius.

Rubbish.

How many of those wins started from grid positions outside the top three rows?

I’ll tell you.

Two.

His #1, the legendary Ayrton Senna, never won starting below P5.........

I am 90% sure about this, but if someone remembers anything else, then please correct me...



edit:

I just found this and maybe this so called journalist can try to argue on these facts:

1)In all the races that Schumi competed against Senna, Senna had the better car, and Schumi beat Senna in the championship in his first full season of F1, 1992. In a Benneton. Look at Schumi’s teammates, they didn’t do close to what he did in the Benneton
2)Schumacher is the most strategic, technical driver and further more is very gifted in his driving ability.. Michael took Ferrari on higher level. Senna always moved to better teams. From Lotus to Mclaren easily when Lotus was not seen as good. If Senna was the best he would had changed the team.
3) Both were prepared to drive others off the track deliberately to win world championships. Schumacher did it to Damon Hill at Adelaide in 1994 and tried to do it to Jacques Villeneuve in 1997 at Jeréz, while Senna is remembered for arguably the most outrageous example of on-track brutality at Suzuka in 1989 and 1990.
4) People here criticize Michael for some of his very unfair moves but why aren’t they pointing out the fact that Senna did exactly the same and ADMITTED IT after
5)Senna might be god in qualifying but cannot match Schumi over a race distance.
And u gotta think whats more important qualify or whole race? Senna’s qualifying ability means little in terms of his race ability. Even when Schumacher does not qualify especially well he is still able to finish well, usually on top of the podium, because he is able to constantly deliver laps faster than the rest of the field
6)I feel that winning a Race proves the worthiness of a driver much more than qualifying.
Michael has always had in his hand the fastest cars of the grid, huh??? This is only true in 2001, 2002 and 2004. I agree that Senna was one of the best & perhaps the most aggressive, Michael Schumacher is the Complete Driver.
7)In the years that they did race against each other, Schumacher was able to push on Senna despite being less experienced and in an inferior car
Senna just got the crowd in his back because he died so tragically.
Its known that dead artists or drivers whatever get more known and appreciated then the still living.
8)Even when MS was almost a rookie in 1993 (though made debut in 91) the F1 world was already questioning who was better Senna or Schumacher, This fact answering the question whos better.
Michael Schumacher greatest driver ever . Thats all!
9) Another facts: a) Senna during 84-93 seasons(after 9 full seasons) won 41 races while retired 47 times , Schumacher during 92-01 seasons (after 9 full) won 53 races while retired 40 times and plus broke leg and missed 6 gp in 1999.
b) Senna won first 40 races 28 times from pole position but Schumacher won his first 40 races just 10 times from pole. And Senna never won any race lower than 5 place on starting grid but Michael did it 3 times from his first 40 victorious races.

Nice statement journalist for your top list...

10) I think Schumacher would win based purely on his relentless race pace. Over a race distance Schumacher was the fastest driver ever in my opinion. Schumacher had 76 fastest laps in his career compared with Sennas 19. Senna would win over one lap in qualifying but in a race i give it to Schumacher everytime.
11) Senna was fast but erratic
12) Michael Schumacher has a number of intrinsic strengths that makes him so formidable. He is easily the most ruthless and aggressive driver on the circuit; he has no qualms creating situations that are conducive to accidents if he has to get his way. There is no one who comes close to him in wet-weather conditions (Michael and Ayrton equal in wet-weather that’s simple truth). Apart from the fact that he is a great racing driver, he understands all the factors that go into a win. There is no one who understands a racecar better than him. His greatest strength is that he has the ability to motivate the entire team of Ferrari engineers and technicians to give him the fastest car possible.
13) Schumacher beated Senna more times than Senna beated Schumacher. Schumacher scored much more points since 1992 than Senna! Schumacher was magic in barcelona 92 beated only by super williams of Mansell, in the rain, while Senna made 2 spins, and Schumi won in spa 92 under the rain, and was better than super-williams of Mansell and Patrese and of course better than Senna. Schumi overtook Senna many times, more than Senna overtook Schumi. Schumi 36%wins, Senna25%. Schumi 10% accidents, Senna 13%.
14) 1993 European grand prix: Many say this was Senna’s greatest drive, but he dismissed this, saying it was “easy” because of traction-control (but people forget that he had traction control (reportedly the most evolved at the time) where Schumacher didn’t have (only in Monaco some races after).
15) Senna has just 19 fastest laps after 41 victorious races while Schumacher has 41 fastest laps after 41 victorious races (and Michael reached 19 fastest laps in his career already after 1995 french gp)
16) No other team in f1 history had so much amount to her driver like Ferrari had to Michael
17) Michael Schumacher towers over his era in Formula One like an omnipotent colossus. It was a move rooted in hubris – he wanted to become a legend by becoming known as the man who returned greatness to the sport’s most legendary team. He paid the price for a few years as Ferrari struggled to beat Williams and then McLaren – but since 2000 the German and his team have indeed carved out the “Ferrari era”. Peerless in wet or dry, in qualifying or race, in pure driving terms and in motivating a team, Schumacher is the greatest driver of all time.

[DJTaurus]

http://www.f1speedwriter.com/2012/10...es-true_4.html

[SS454]

Probably the worst article I've read. I always laugh when most people rank drivers. So often I see the following get ranked, in no particular order, but always very high on the list.

Ayrton Senna - always in the top 1-2 mostly because he was awesome, but so often just because some other guy says he was the best. And the fact he was a fatality of F1, I swear people think its disrespectful to rank him otherwise. During his peak years it he was easily the best in F1 at the time, and at the time of his fatality he was still hammering down poles, but a certain Michael Schumacher was knocking him off his throne during the races.

Fangio - okay has anyone ever seen this guy race? 80% of people doing the rankings put him in the top 3 because he won 5 championships. Nobody seems to want to remember F1 back in the 50s was a bunch of rich guys racing around, and he just happened to be one of the better drivers in one of the better cars. Just because a guy drove in F1 in 1952 does not mean he was a legit race driver.

Lewis Hamilton - he is a great talent, but more importantly he's British. Most of these "Lewis Hamilton is so great" articles come from British media. Surprise surprise.

I enjoy seeing people's opinions on greatest of all time lists, but I like to see reasons why too. Lewis Hamilton may well deserve to be in the top 10 list one day, but if reports are going to mention future greats, why not mention Alonso or Vettel? IMO, Alonso is well on his way to being in the top 5, while Vettel is pounding away at the record books for his statistics and he's super young still. Both far more qualified to being mentioned before Hamilton.

Rant over.

[Red passion]

IMO, Alonso is well on his way to being in the top 5, while Vettel is pounding away at the record books for his statistics and he's super young still. Both far more qualified to being mentioned before Hamilton.

This is your opinion, but in a world of Fangio, Clark, Hill, Stewart, Moss, Schumacher, Senna that is a big achievement

[SS454]

This is your opinion, but in a world of Fangio, Clark, Hill, Stewart, Moss, Schumacher, Senna that is a big achievement

It is a big achievement, but what is so unrealistic about it?

[Tifoso84]

What a ridiculously ignorant article! Who the hell does this guy think he is, dammit?! I know that he's just another ignorant fool who has illusions of grandeur, and I know that I shouldn't even get angry, but I just can't help it.
It's so sad that people tend to forget about the past and along with it all the legendary races Schumi did. Schumi was the best and most complete race driver ever from 1994-2004, everyone who knows anything about F1 knows that. He was the perfect combination of Prost's cleverness and cunning, and Senna's raw speed and instincts. At the moment, yes, I'll admit that unfortunately the age factor has caught up with him and he's not the same invincible superman that he used to be. But all the haters base their opinion only on Schumi's Mercedes years and completely ignore his glory days at Benetton and Ferrari. I for one have no doubt that the Schumi we saw in 1994-2004 seasons could've beaten anyone in F1 history in equal cars. He is the greatest of all-time, the King

[Tifoso84]

My personal Top 10 would be...
1. Michael Schumacher (the most complete racing driver ever)
2. Ayrton Senna (yea, he was great, no doubt about it, but most people idolise him more simply because he died in that accident)
3. Juan-Manuel Fangio
4. Gilles Villeneuve (if he hadn't died in that tragic accident in 1982 then I'm sure he would've become a multiple world champion - his natural talent and speed was just astonishing)
5. Fernando Alonso (his ability to take the maximum out of any car is undeniable)
6. Alain Prost
7. Niki Lauda
8. Jim Clark
9. Nigel Mansell
10. Kimi Räikkonen (or Nelson Piquet)

P.S. - That's my list and my opinions, so no need to bash my head in with a boat oar

[Red passion]

It is a big achievement, but what is so unrealistic about it?

FA is not good enough yet for that driver list, i will wait til he retires and put him in

[SS454]

FA is not good enough yet for that driver list, i will wait til he retires and put him in

But I didn't say Alonso is top 5 just yet, I said he was well on his way to be. I do put him ahead of Jackie Stewart and Stirling Moss though. I think its realistic that Alonso could finish with 3 or 4 championships when his Career is done. And he has put in some amazing drives in cars that have not been great.

[brembo man]

Flavio ,the chin Benneton had illegal traction control. The chin I can believe would do anything illegal at the drop of a hat, but Flavio? A man of honor ?

[brembo man]

Alonso is the best today, when he doesn't win it's the car! Just like when Alonso whooped the chin twice, it was the cars fault, or was it the tires?

[Red passion]

But I didn't say Alonso is top 5 just yet, I said he was well on his way to be. I do put him ahead of Jackie Stewart and Stirling Moss though. I think its realistic that Alonso could finish with 3 or 4 championships when his Career is done. And he has put in some amazing drives in cars that have not been great.

ok mate, i agree with you, in time he will get into that list

[Tony79]

Wasn't it 2002 not 2001 that Rubens moved over? Pretty poor research for a "journalist"

[brembo man]

He said 2001 to get peoples attention. Who cares what year, the fact is it happened , No big time research neccessary, that bum stole that race from his teamate. He did park on the track, just ask Alonso if it's true. All the makings of a true champion!!

[Rob]

Ferrari asked Rubens to move over in 2001 so Schuey can take 2nd behind DC.

[Rob]

Flavio ,the chin Benneton had illegal traction control. The chin I can believe would do anything illegal at the drop of a hat, but Flavio? A man of honor ?

So as you say "the chin" always done illegal things to win? So Senna winning the 1990 WDC by crashing into Prost at the start to win the Championship wasnt illegal or wrong ,no?

Just seems you think "the chin" as you call him all the time, is the worst driver ever to do something wrong to win at all costs.