Red Bull are probably cheating thread

**ferrari4life** · 26th July 2012, 15:15

cant this idiot be censored by the FIA?

**Rob** · 26th July 2012, 15:20

Originally Posted by ferrari4life

cant this idiot be censored by the FIA?

**Hornet** · 26th July 2012, 15:25

Originally Posted by peta_w

So me wanting to win under the rules all teams started the season under is crazy? Fact is the Red Bull was legal in Germany and now rules are being written to take a car that was legal and allowed to race into something that can't be raced.

Rules are merely a means to regulate. Sometimes, they don't cover everything which allows others to exploit the rules and defeat the intended regulation. Is it illegal? Technically no. But it means the rules need to be tweaked to ensure that the intended regulation is achieved.

Red Bull, while did not breach any written rule, went against the intend of certain rules.

Here's an example. Its like a school making a rule that all student must wear uniform to ensure that the students present themself in a more formal manner. That is the intention of the rule. However, students soon found a loophole where while the rule says they must wear the school's uniform, it did not say they cannot modify it. So, they start putting badges on, draw on the uniform and so on. They did not break any rule, but they've defeated the intention of the rule. Therefore, they rules must then be re-written to ensure students don't do that, so they can uphold the original intentions of keeping everyone formal.

**Gerhard Berger** · 26th July 2012, 15:28

Originally Posted by Rob

Marko has already referred to a "double standard" sometimes employed by the FIA when it comes to penalties, and now team boss Christian Horner says he has reviewed footage of Ferrari driver Fernando Alonso's pole lap at Hockenheim.

"On the last corner he was off the circuit with all four wheels," the Briton is quoted by Auto Motor und Sport, intimating that the Spaniard also broke the rules for advantage but was not penalised.

His previous lap would have been good enough for pole position anyway. Sour grapes!

**Jose-Lorca Fan** · 26th July 2012, 15:35

Originally Posted by peta_w

So me wanting to win under the rules all teams started the season under is crazy? Fact is the Red Bull was legal in Germany and now rules are being written to take a car that was legal and allowed to race into something that can't be raced.

No. Your initial comment was this:

Don't like this, we don't need the FIA to change the rules for us to win.

No one is changing the rules for us to win. The rules are being clarified so that teams like Red Bull don't find loopholes to gain an unfair advantage on competitors. I mean have you been following this whole saga or not?

**Greig** · 26th July 2012, 15:42

Originally Posted by peta_w

So me wanting to win under the rules all teams started the season under is crazy? Fact is the Red Bull was legal in Germany and now rules are being written to take a car that was legal and allowed to race into something that can't be raced.

Funny cause in 2010 when I was against a mid-season rule change you accused me of being a Red Bull fan......

**tifosi_kaka** · 26th July 2012, 15:49

Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger

His previous lap would have been good enough for pole position anyway. Sour grapes!

And how many times has Vettel ran all four wheels outside the kerbs on the exit of Turn 10 during the race? What a hypocrite that was.

I sometimes used to wonder how these people can come up with such hypocratic stuff.

**Homan13PSU** · 26th July 2012, 15:54

Originally Posted by Rob

MARKO CRITICISES RULE-CHANGING AND RED BULL'S RIVALS
Thursday 26 July at 08:35 : Jul.26 (GMM)

Dr Helmut Marko is critical not only of the moves to change the engine mapping rules mid-season, but also of rival teams who lobbied the FIA and then refused to own up at a meeting earlier this week.

In the wake of the Hockenheim controversy about Red Bull's reportedly legal traction control and engine exhaust blowing settings, F1's governing body on Wednesday issued a rule clarification that means the team must revert to a more conventional setup in Hungary this weekend and beyond.

The move follows the FIA revealing its concern about the Red Bull solution at Hockenheim, but admitting the wording of the existing rules made it powerless to stop it.

Wednesday's clarification closes the loophole.

"We were not cleared (at Hockenheim) because we falsified the evidence, but because we were within the regulations," Austrian Marko, Red Bull's motor racing consultant, told Servus TV.

He railed against overnight rule changes.

"If something is green, you can't then make it blue," said Marko.

"Nowhere does it say that we can't use the regulations in our favour."

He also criticised the behaviour of Red Bull's rivals, who according to speculation lobbied the FIA for the change but were then silent in Monday's technical meeting in London.

"Again and again, there are people who do such a thing. I'm talking of the other teams," said Marko.

"Then on Monday, when we could have addressed it professionally and objectively, it is not even addressed."

Red Bull is also still annoyed about Sebastian Vettel's demotion from second to fifth at Hockenheim for his illegal pass on Jenson Button.

Marko has already referred to a "double standard" sometimes employed by the FIA when it comes to penalties, and now team boss Christian Horner says he has reviewed footage of Ferrari driver Fernando Alonso's pole lap at Hockenheim.

"On the last corner he was off the circuit with all four wheels," the Briton is quoted by Auto Motor und Sport, intimating that the Spaniard also broke the rules for advantage but was not penalised.

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/daily...7s+rivals.html

Oh really Marko? You can't one day call something green, and then the next call it blue? How about Lotus' brake bias system? Red Bull was VERY silent on that issue, except when Horner came out and said Red Bull wasn't even looking at such a system. Why would he feel the need to say that Dr. Marko? Because maybe YOU all were protesting that setup behind the scenes? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Also, I'd LOVE to see this "video evidence" of Fernando being off track with all four wheels. Not that I think it would matter in that scenario anyways...

**ferrari4life** · 26th July 2012, 16:04

what a chump...going off track unless to cut a chicane usually is worse since the track is not as well clean or rubbered in

**Hornet** · 26th July 2012, 16:05

Hahaha. I can't believe Red Bull would be that low.

The race is over, Alonso won fair and square. The level of sour-grapeness is very high with this one.

**ferrari4life** · 26th July 2012, 16:08

i remember a quote from Stefano when Horner and co were going on and on about ragging on Ferrari for team orders..

"When they have achieved half of what we have..we will repond to them"

something along those lines i think

**Jose-Lorca Fan** · 26th July 2012, 16:22

New rumours circulating that Red Bull cheated in Valencia and Canada where they made changes to ride height from Qualifying to the race in Parc Fermé conditions. Apparently the FIA were aware of this but didn't penalise them...
More to follow soon...

**Kyss4k** · 26th July 2012, 16:25

Originally Posted by Jose-Lorca Fan

New rumours circulating that Red Bull cheated in Valencia and Canada where they made changes to ride height from Qualifying to the race in Parc Fermé conditions. Apparently the FIA were aware of this but didn't penalise them...
More to follow soon...

How could they... What?

**SilverSpeed** · 26th July 2012, 16:25

They are such a bunch of cry baby's when they can't win haha.

I hope there is more to come

.

**Greig** · 26th July 2012, 16:32

Originally Posted by Jose-Lorca Fan

New rumours circulating that Red Bull cheated in Valencia and Canada where they made changes to ride height from Qualifying to the race in Parc Fermé conditions. Apparently the FIA were aware of this but didn't penalise them...
More to follow soon...

From?

**scuderiafan** · 26th July 2012, 16:33

Lol, small team syndrome both of Alonso's laps would have been good enough for pole.

**Jose-Lorca Fan** · 26th July 2012, 16:39

Originally Posted by Greig

From?

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...n-5305748.html

A piece of the article roughly translated by Google:

Red Bull had to modify the chassis adjustment
The third case leaked out only at the edge of the Hungarian GP. In Montreal, the governing body discovered on the third shock in front of Red Bull to unauthorized adjustment RB8. On the setting of the damper depends from the ground clearance at the front axle. This should not change between qualifying and race. Because adjustments by hand to the guard in the pits would be difficult to detect, the FIA has adopted the rule that all the suspension adjustments are to be operated with one tool.

In the case of Red Bull but it was easily possible with the bare hand. Anyone who thinks evil imply, might that was in the race previously adjusted between training and racing of ground clearance, without noticing that the Commissioner in the pits. The FIA had at Red Bull, the remedy promptly, without it hanging from the rooftops. Rule, experts say: "It would have to disqualify Red Bull loose in Canada."

**Fer12** · 26th July 2012, 17:12

What the Hell is going on with FIA and RED BULL...
This is ridiculous!!
"Some new news has just come to light. In Montreal the FIA inspectors found an illegal mechanism to change the third damper on the front axle on both red Bull cars. The damper setting affects the front axle ride height, which must not change between quali and race. Because manual changes are difficult to detect for FIA inspectors, the FIA came up with the rule that all suspension changes must require tools.

In the case of Red Bull however changing the setting was child's play with the bare hand. If someone wanted to think evil he could insinuate that RBR changed the ride height between quali and race in the preceding races too. The FIA told RBR to cease using this mechanism without making noises. Rules experts say that it would have been easy to DQ RBR over this in Montreal.

Here is the rule, it's article 34.5 of the Sporting Regulations.

''34.5 If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set‐up of the suspension
whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions the relevant driver must start the race
from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2.

In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made
to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the
front wing) whilst in post‐qualifying parc fermé, it must be clear from physical inspection that
changes cannot be made without the use of tools.''

**Hermann** · 26th July 2012, 17:16

What is going on? What quite a lot of people already suspected long ago. What else is new.

Get your tinfoils hats ready.

**Tifoso** · 26th July 2012, 17:17

Holy cow. That would be huge. If true, a DQ from points, I'd think.

**ferrari1.8t** · 26th July 2012, 17:21

Its all hearsay right now. However, if it would be proven true it would be absolutely crazy. I just don't understand why the FIA keeps turning a blind eye to RB and its tricks. How much money is Marko stuffing down Bernie's and Todt's paints?

**Fer12** · 26th July 2012, 17:21

They should have disqualified them but they did not...

**ferrari1.8t** · 26th July 2012, 17:23

Originally Posted by Fer12

They should have disqualified them but they did not...

They should loose all of there WCC and WDC points.....

**Hermann** · 26th July 2012, 17:24

Originally Posted by Tifoso

Holy cow. That would be huge. If true, a DQ from points, I'd think.

How could FIA come down on RB when in fact they actually supported all that cheating before? No wonder Horner and Marko are complaining now.

Just wait for FIA as well as RB to come out and deny, deny and deny.

**Kyss4k** · 26th July 2012, 17:43

WOW! Just thought there wasn't any affair this year...

**Dino** · 26th July 2012, 18:10

Marko has already referred to a "double standard" sometimes employed by the FIA when it comes to penalties, and now team boss Christian Horner says he has reviewed footage of Ferrari driver Fernando Alonso's pole lap at Hockenheim.

"On the last corner he was off the circuit with all four wheels," the Briton is quoted by Auto Motor und Sport, intimating that the Spaniard also broke the rules for advantage but was not penalised.

What a pair of IDIOTS !Alonso was not overtaking anyone and it was qualifying not the race!!
Vettel did go out of the track several times during the race in turn 10 [?] and nobody complained about that..which is fair.
After getting caught playing with the engine mapping Horner is also modifying the car's suspension before the race in parc ferme!!!!!
Marko should really shut his big mouth and hide if all this is proved..

**Fer12** · 26th July 2012, 18:30

The Mapping rule has upset the old man..Red bull may suffer because of that,not so much in qualifying but in the race.They were able ti look after their tires because they had less wheelspin in slower corners.Now that the adv is gone wel see how they get along...