Red Bull are probably cheating thread

[ferrari4life]

great the way its all worded now we will have to wonder how it will effect ferrari as well

[FrankAlfa]

@ peta_w,

The rules are NOT being changed for anyone to win! The rules are being enforced based on the rules change that occurred last year! No one is getting away with Cheating on this Blown-Diffuser Rule! Red Bull should be Punished for their Brazin Abuse of the rules and the intent of the rules! The should have points taken away from them and they shouldbe demoted positions for using something clearly banned! Ferrari are winning races Fair and Square while following the Rules to the letter and are NOT Cheating like Red Bull has been.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Kyss4k]

Don't like this, we don't need the FIA to change the rules for us to win.

They are not changing the rules for us. They are changing the rules, because RB is trying to "legally" recreate something, that is forbiden since 2008.

[Greig]

great the way its all worded now we will have to wonder how it will effect ferrari as well

Why would it? FIA examine all the maps and it's only Red Bull that were cheating the rules.

[ferrari4life]

they are not allowing any changes in the maps from race to race either.. i am not sure if other teams have been using this to account for different tracks if not to the extend of retarding the traction that much.

[Tifoso]

Don't like this, we don't need the FIA to change the rules for us to win.

You're right. We should allow Red Bull to use a nuclear reactor, if they want.

[Hornet]

Greig made a good point. We're already halfway through the season, had Ferrari intend to use this, they would have done so by now and triggered the controversy.

It happened now because Red Bull were the first who start playing around with it.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Don't like this, we don't need the FIA to change the rules for us to win.

[Giallo 550]

You're right. We should allow Red Bull to use a nuclear reactor, if they want.

Or hydrogen! BOOM!!!

[ferrari1.8t]

Or hydrogen! BOOM!!!

1e1d488b_BACK_TO_THE_FUTURE-0.jpgflux.jpg

LOL

[Kingdom Hearts]

RB cheat, and the other teams pay for it too, nice.

[Silent Bob]

Y'know, all this banning and changing the rules after the fact without any consequences is really only benefiting RB. Until the FIA start punishing for flagrant abuse of the rules, what have RB lost? They can come up with some other device or map or program that flaunts the rules, win a race and then change it because the FIA have amended some rules. If they do this 3-4 times a season it could potentially mean some massive points and possibly a championship. The FIA and the stewards have to grow a pair and start handing out some whup-ass.

[Red passion]

Is RB engine mapping illegal.
if no, fine, RB should keep racing with it and sorry Horner & Newey for annoying ye.
if yes, what can the FIA do to them for the races they used it i.e. can they deduct points from constructors table but the driver keeps his as it is a team issue.

what punishment is there to give them, change engine map back to the original one, that's a slap on the hand, don't do it again.
can they be fined, a race ban, a drop of grid slots.

can red bull appeal any of these decisions in court.

[Tifoso]

Is RB engine mapping illegal.
if no, fine, RB should keep racing with it and sorry Horner & Newey for annoying ye.
if yes, what can the FIA do to them for the races they used it i.e. can they deduct points from constructors table but the driver keeps his as it is a team issue.

what punishment is there to give them, change engine map back to the original one, that's a slap on the hand, don't do it again.
can they be fined, a race ban, a drop of grid slots.

can red bull appeal any of these decisions in court.

They will do nothing for past abuses, I'd say, as the rules were not clear.

[Red passion]

They will do nothing for past abuses, I'd say, as the rules were not clear.

Red Bull are really pushing the boundaries this year as to want is acceptable, is this because the blown diffuser thing is banned, is it because the tyres change the way their car drives, or is because we are putting them under pressure and they need solutions now.

i would happily applaud Vettel if he wins the WDC again this year, he will have come back against a great outfit that we are, but i hope the next 10 races we have no controversy from Red Bull just like we have not over stepped the line with illegal devices/gadgets etc. Then we can say he deserved the title over us.

[aroutis]

Is RB engine mapping illegal.
if no, fine, RB should keep racing with it and sorry Horner & Newey for annoying ye.
if yes, what can the FIA do to them for the races they used it i.e. can they deduct points from constructors table but the driver keeps his as it is a team issue.

what punishment is there to give them, change engine map back to the original one, that's a slap on the hand, don't do it again.
can they be fined, a race ban, a drop of grid slots.

can red bull appeal any of these decisions in court.

Letting a driver keep their points while driving an illegal car is a complete utter stupid thing to do, and that is simply because the driver actually is a part of the team and he wins points by driving the car the team is giving them. How is it possible that for example a driver can win a WDC while his car is illegal or was at a point, is beyond me. This is a team sport. If the teams choose to drive illegal components or what not, then the points should be deducted by them and the drivers.

[Red passion]

Letting a driver keep their points while driving an illegal car is a complete utter stupid thing to do, and that is simply because the driver actually is a part of the team and he wins points by driving the car the team is giving them. How is it possible that for example a driver can win a WDC while his car is illegal or was at a point, is beyond me. This is a team sport. If the teams choose to drive illegal components or what not, then the points should be deducted by them and the drivers.

My thought process behind this is, McLaren lost their pts when they got excluded from the championship but the drivers kept their points. is that correct.
if yes how is it possible for their driver to win the WDC and the team gets excluded.

[ferrari4life]

so the first 4 races we had a crap car. what if we have a compromized torque map?

guess we would be the ones screwed then.

[FerrariF60]

so the first 4 races we had a crap car. what if we have a compromized torque map?

guess we would be the ones screwed then.

i guess we would have been screwed, but we're NOT....and WHY?? because we play by the rules, unlike the the cheesy red fools' drinks team...

ENOUGH SAID!!!!!

[Corey]

i guess we would have been screwed, but we're NOT....and WHY?? because we play by the rules, unlike the the cheesy red fools' drinks team...

ENOUGH SAID!!!!!

Well even though a team's design is bending the rules a little and had to be changed later, at least they won the few races they raced with that engine map. And if the team does have to go back to a lower spec/more standardized version of the map, they are going to be back to the same level as everyone else, but that's the point. It still doesn't mean they have less chances than others. If we did go for a radical on-the-limit engine map, we would've probably won the other 3 of the first 4 races too (or at least podiums) Say we got caught by the FIA by the Spanish GP and we had to revert back to the standard map (the legit copy we are using now); but even with that handicap, we still should manage quite well. Just look at our results over the past 3-5 races.

And btw, if it REALLY WAS illegal then it would've never made it onto the grid. So no one can say that we are complete cheaters.

[Brakefade]

Can anybody find an onboard video of Webber or Vettel during Q3 in Germany. Would be interesting to compare it to ours, just to see if we can spot their pseudo traction control at work.

[Greig]

Coming to think about it during Sky's coverage at some point Martin Brundle said Red Bull had already been given warnings about their maps, then Germany it was sent to the stewards, so if he is right then it does sound like they have used it for more than one race.

[Brakefade]

Found the Vettel onboard. It's on the F1 website. And when you run it side by side with the Alonso onboard, there is definitely more modulation of the throttle by Alonso and more counter steering than Vettel. Also, Vettels car seems to understeer while Alonso's is very oversteer-ish. You would expect all cars to be oversteering during rain conditions, but for Vettel's to actually be understeering is indicative of not having enough "torque" to make the rear slide out, but what do I know. In any case, yeah we have traction control alright, it's call Fernando Alonso's right foot. I'm starting to think this didn't give RB any advantage.

Also, the videos show you who the better driver is. Vettel isn't even close to Alonso. The line Alonso takes is just beautiful, whereas Vettel's...

[Greig]

Was Q3 not raining? so drivers tend to find their own lines

[F2002]

so the first 4 races we had a crap car. what if we have a compromized torque map?

guess we would be the ones screwed then.

The main deficit in the first few races was aerodynamic, which also had a bearing on top speed. This won't have an impact on Ferrari I'm sure.

[Dino]

Was Q3 not raining? so drivers tend to find their own lines

Exactly,
Alonso chose totally different lines on the very last lap when nobody else had time left to copy them!!!!!!!Fox.....

[flam147]

well i guess any advantage Vettel had he lost in his Penulty .

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Following the clarification on Engine maps, Fernando Alonso has has announced that the rule change will have no effect on Ferrari whatsoever.

[peta_w]

So me wanting to win under the rules all teams started the season under is crazy? Fact is the Red Bull was legal in Germany and now rules are being written to take a car that was legal and allowed to race into something that can't be raced.

[Rob]

MARKO CRITICISES RULE-CHANGING AND RED BULL'S RIVALS
Thursday 26 July at 08:35 : Jul.26 (GMM)

Dr Helmut Marko is critical not only of the moves to change the engine mapping rules mid-season, but also of rival teams who lobbied the FIA and then refused to own up at a meeting earlier this week.

In the wake of the Hockenheim controversy about Red Bull's reportedly legal traction control and engine exhaust blowing settings, F1's governing body on Wednesday issued a rule clarification that means the team must revert to a more conventional setup in Hungary this weekend and beyond.

The move follows the FIA revealing its concern about the Red Bull solution at Hockenheim, but admitting the wording of the existing rules made it powerless to stop it.

Wednesday's clarification closes the loophole.

"We were not cleared (at Hockenheim) because we falsified the evidence, but because we were within the regulations," Austrian Marko, Red Bull's motor racing consultant, told Servus TV.

He railed against overnight rule changes.

"If something is green, you can't then make it blue," said Marko.

"Nowhere does it say that we can't use the regulations in our favour."

He also criticised the behaviour of Red Bull's rivals, who according to speculation lobbied the FIA for the change but were then silent in Monday's technical meeting in London.

"Again and again, there are people who do such a thing. I'm talking of the other teams," said Marko.

"Then on Monday, when we could have addressed it professionally and objectively, it is not even addressed."

Red Bull is also still annoyed about Sebastian Vettel's demotion from second to fifth at Hockenheim for his illegal pass on Jenson Button.

Marko has already referred to a "double standard" sometimes employed by the FIA when it comes to penalties, and now team boss Christian Horner says he has reviewed footage of Ferrari driver Fernando Alonso's pole lap at Hockenheim.

"On the last corner he was off the circuit with all four wheels," the Briton is quoted by Auto Motor und Sport, intimating that the Spaniard also broke the rules for advantage but was not penalised.

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/daily...7s+rivals.html