Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

[Suzie]

Taking comments out of context is beneath your position as moderator.
So, I think I'll skip responding, if you don't mind?

I don't think I took anything out of context, to be honest. You have said plenty of times that you believe Felipe should have gone when Fernando was signed, not Kimi. I believed the comment I quoted was you merely expressing this opinion again.

I don't mind at all, you can be quite assured of that.

[sagi58]

...I believed the comment I quoted was you merely expressing this opinion again.

I don't mind at all, you can be quite assured of that.

Sure, IF you take it out of its context, which you disappointingly did!
That's OK, sometimes "simple" is just the way it works, for some of us!

[sagi58]

Yes other tracks might have a corner or two that is punishing, Monaco has it all the way round, no escaping your errors so no it can't be said of any other track, but if you do not think Monaco is a circuit that really tests the drivers then so be it.

I asked because I wanted to understand. I asked because I want to learn. I asked because I figured someone would give me a straight answer.

Thanks for the info!

[Poltergeistes]

I asked because I wanted to understand. I asked because I want to learn. I asked because I figured someone would give me a straight answer.

Thanks for the info!

Well i think also the reason for us to say it was a hard test for felipe and he passed, is because in the past, and by past i mean before alonso joined in, felipe used to really not do well there, and he was always very verbal about it too, he has said that out of all calendar Monaco was the one he was always on edge, dreadful and didn't like it. and this happened until 2008, in 08 he did a superb pole, and race as well, he learned a few tricks in a matter of 2 practice sessions.

I still stand by what i have already pointed out, his work is pretty much double that of fernando, because fernando gets to pick the road the car development goes, and felipe and rob gets to work their way around this car that is mainly made for Fernando.

And by saying this i am not bashing fernando, or ferrari for that matter, alonso is a double champion, and he has been on his best ever since he joined ferrari, and felipe had just so many problems to work out.

but we know the talent is there, he wouldn't get to ferrari without it, he wouldn't have that 2008 season without it, it's just that it's so covered by many problems, that we can't see on the scoreboard his talent..

He has been working hard, to try and drive around these problems, and at the end of the day i would rather have a hard working driver like felipe than someone like kimi who didn't seem to care and realise what ferrari is.

[Hornet]

And do you really think that with the slow start and struggles with the F2012, that the ferrari engineers simply asked: "felipe what do you want us to improv in this car that best suits you?" from the first race on, do you think the scuderia went to felipe and said, ok what and where do you need it fixed felipe?

I'm just pointing out that, this question went to Fernando, and from whatever fernando's answers and picks were, they tried to make it suitable for him, and ONLY then, the order was, ok felipe with this car that is going to be designed and developed to fernandos need, we need you and rob to find a way to learn your way around these developments, so that we can have the car working as best it can in your side of the garage.

This seems so simple to me, and even reasonable, which is why i don't get why the pressure on Felipe to deliver, and most of all, actually compete with Fernando on track. we know which order works for ferrari, so why pretend that felipe is doing an awful job, because he simply can't match fernando, when he was never sent out to match fernando.

You gotta admit that this is probably harder than that spring on Felipe's head. for him to come around all these obstacles and beat his teammate, it would take a senna to do it. yes the team has got felipe's back too, the problem is that alongside the team, felipe has got fernando's back.

One thing is for sure, don't ever let felipe turn that first corner in first position, cause god knows he is the best defender on the field, and i would not like to hear another team order like in germany, if they are ever gonna do it, at least do it without taking away felipe's dignity in public.

If your reasoning is right, then I don't understand why any Massa's fan would want to see Massa continuing in Ferrari next year. You guys should be cheering instead at any rumors that Ferrari will be hiring someone else.

Since big bad Ferrari is holding Massa back, might as well let him move on to other team.

[Greig]

I asked because I wanted to understand. I asked because I want to learn. I asked because I figured someone would give me a straight answer.

Thanks for the info!

I gave a straight answer and you still questioned it.

[sagi58]

I gave a straight answer and you still questioned it.

I didn't question your authority/knowledge, so much as I asked if most tracks don't all have their own peculiar traits that could be considered dangerous.
Although you gave a "straight" answer, which is what one would expect of "most" men, you did so without any details or examples. On the other hand, Poltergeist, provided all sorts of details that made sense!

Thanks, Poltergeist!! I learned something new today!!

[Greig]

I didn't question your authority/knowledge, so much as I asked if most tracks don't all have their own peculiar traits that could be considered dangerous.
Although you gave a "straight" answer, which is what one would expect of "most" men, you did so without any details or examples. On the other hand, Poltergeist, provided all sorts of details that made sense!

Thanks, Poltergeist!! I learned something new today!!

Who mentioned danger? Not much danger in any track these days. Poltergeist made no reference to the track in general so I am not quite sure how you learned much about Monaco as a driver test from that post, but glad for you that you feel you did. Monaco is a hard test for any driver due to the lack of any escape from the smallest of error, not just for Felipe. Not quite sure you really need to be making sexist nitpicking remarks either.

[sagi58]

Who mentioned danger? Not much danger in any track these days. Poltergeist made no reference to the track in general so I am not quite sure how you learned much about Monaco as a driver test from that post, but glad for you that you feel you did. Monaco is a hard test for any driver due to the lack of any escape from the smallest of error, not just for Felipe. Not quite sure you really need to be making sexist nitpicking remarks either.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, Greig; but, in reading your responses to me on this particular subject, which were sprinkled with words like "punishing" or phrases like "no escaping your errors", I assumed you meant it was a "dangerous" track!

As for Poltergeistes' post, I appreciated how he outlined his opinion and related it to the difficulty that Massa seems to be having, this year. From that, I assumed that most "secondary" drivers must be having the same kind of issues in their teams. Hadn't thought of it that way; so, yes, I did learn something new that I will probably relate to this track.

Oh, by the way, you will probably not ever meet a LESS sexist person than myself, which is why I chose my words VERY carefully:

Although you gave a "straight" answer, which is what one would expect of "most" men, you did so without any details or examples.

[Corey]

I still stand by what i have already pointed out, his work is pretty much double that of fernando, because fernando gets to pick the road the car development goes, and felipe and rob gets to work their way around this car that is mainly made for Fernando.

I think the car development team would've given Felipe the chance to speak out his words and make his preferences clear. Massa isn't the "You give me a car, I drive it" sort of guy. If he knows that the car is difficult to drive then he would've joined in with the development like Alonso and get that car to be made to the direct likings of his driving style. And I'm pretty sure that's what he's doing now. Therefore I won't say that the F2012 is a Alonso-car.

[Poltergeistes]

If your reasoning is right, then I don't understand why any Massa's fan would want to see Massa continuing in Ferrari next year. You guys should be cheering instead at any rumors that Ferrari will be hiring someone else.

Since big bad Ferrari is holding Massa back, might as well let him move on to other team.

I'm a ferrari fan, has been for a very long time, from way before felipe even started out in f1, he is my fav driver simply cause of the thins he has done so far for the team ever since he arrived, this doesn't mean i'm not fernando's fan also.

Big bad ferrari is holding felipe back? since when have you been watchin the sport? it's not that ferrari is holding felipe back, it's just that ferrari has to place the bet on fernando, cause he has been delivering. i'm also not saying that felipe has no say at all, but "the benchmark" for the team is fernando, at least until and if felipe gets back to winning races or performin like he used to.

i dont want felipe out, cause i'm a brazilian from an italian family, so i've been very happy since felipe joined ferrari. a wonderful relationship between the 2. felipe to me is like alesi, somebody who will hold on to whatever ferrari can deliver.

I'm sure many drivers would rather join ferrari than leave.

anyway, i hope you understand what i mean, cause i think you misunderstood my first post.
at the end let's clarify a few things, fernando has been at his best, felipe has been at almost his worst, and most of all "as always ferrari's best interests will always come first!

i just really hope he gets to that 2008 shape, man we would have some serious WCC chances, and if he was deliverin those performances, i'm sure fernando wouldn't win the teammate battle everytime!

ferrari first amico !

[Poltergeistes]

Who mentioned danger? Not much danger in any track these days. Poltergeist made no reference to the track in general so I am not quite sure how you learned much about Monaco as a driver test from that post, but glad for you that you feel you did. Monaco is a hard test for any driver due to the lack of any escape from the smallest of error, not just for Felipe. Not quite sure you really need to be making sexist nitpicking remarks either.

with this i have to agree with my friend greig, i only told you (my friend sagi) also the reasons why it was a tough test in special for felipe,

But you both have a great point to make, which is how the circuits today allows the driver to make mistakes, and get away with, when they use the runoff the most they gotta do is another pitstop, whereas in monaco, you drive in such a tight track, surrounded by walls, can't make mistakes there at all.

[Poltergeistes]

I think the car development team would've given Felipe the chance to speak out his words and make his preferences clear. Massa isn't the "You give me a car, I drive it" sort of guy. If he knows that the car is difficult to drive then he would've joined in with the development like Alonso and get that car to be made to the direct likings of his driving style. And I'm pretty sure that's what he's doing now. Therefore I won't say that the F2012 is a Alonso-car.

yes corey! felipe does have his inputs in the car as well, but perhaps not yet (it's too soon) it comes that part where felipe has no chance of winning the championship, and then the focus goes all to alonso (as it should) in terms of development and strategy fernando will have the preference.

i really think that felipe dropped out of the battle when he chose not to risk a wheel to wheel on the first corner, of the first race, of their first race toghter, fernando risked it, and then there was china, fernando risked it again, and felipe let him. felipe's fighting spirit has to come back.

(PS specially during off season on the italian tvs and brazilian tvs they always are able to catch fernando and felipe trying to cope with the car, i wouldn't be surprised if this kind of input goes on trhou the entire year, sharing info between both sides. )

[Poltergeistes]

By the way i think that if felipe performs the rest of the season the way he did in monaco, i wouldn't be surprised if ferrari let in another 1 or 2 years.

just remember his replacements in 09, it went from a car that took a podium right to a car that was dead last, and the in fisi hands, well, back of the grid again (and fisi was wonderful at his force india)

with a competitive felipe ferrari can afford to give more time to the young talent they will want in the future. you can't rush these things, in a team like ferrari you only get a chance.

there's also the commercial part of it, most of the main sponsors wants both there, they want 2 drivers who are unicef embassadors, both drivers that are respected and have clean names, who are activists, and lets be honest, so does ferrari wants that. one might say, ferrari can get any sponsor and to them it only matter is grabbing both championships, but i think the scuderia knows, they havent delivered a car to win the WCC yet.

[Nova]

that's the funniest thing i've ever heard; we're talking about the same Fernando here right?? teh one that drives for Ferrari.
if so, there is NO WAY in hell that Massa would outperform Fernando in an equal car; and by they way, do you know for a fact?? have you seen it written in Massa's contract that he's not allowed to beat Fernando??

common mate, give your head a shake...we all know Fernando is the most complete driver and king of the grid as he's in his prime years right now; and it's NOT by luck that he leads the WDC, it's SKILL my friend...that only comes wiht experience.

Lol, so I see that some people cannot even fathom a thought that Felipe is anywhere near Alonso? He sure looked close in Monaco, didnt he?
And what does give your head a shake mean? As I said a few posts ago, the guy does good, n the chickens still crow..
This is a team, both drivers drive for Ferrari..If you want to crow about Alonso, go to his own site. I know how good the guy is.
Yet Ive seen Felipe beat him, so there goes the old Alonso can beat people in an inferior car..thats outright BS, and if you knew anything about F1, you would understand
what Im talking about. Its great you love the guy, I like him as long as he drives for my TEAM, thats it.
Now I hate to knok the guy, because he certainly is 1 of the best. But you guys act like Felipe is done, Felipe cant do this or that, yet Alonso poo
doesnt smell. Get a grip and shake your own head. There are plenty of books you can buy to learn about F1.

[Nova]

FIRST of all, I am VERY happy that Massa did so well, in Monaco!!
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

Just trying to figure something out, so bear with me, while I "think" out loud, ok? Ta!!


So, we're to believe that Massa is in an inferior car compared to the one Alonso drives?
And, we're to believe that Massa would be just as fast as Alonso, if not faster, if they
had the same equipment? We're to base that belief on the "evidence" of one very thinly
veiled team order given in Germany two years ago?

Am I missing something? I mean, if that's the case, then what the hell does Ferrari need
to pay so much money to a double WDC, just because he has been hailed as the best driver
on the current grid? We should have saved ourselves the money and just kept Kimi, eh?

(( NOT intended to offend!!))

Your not offending me, I simply am trying to figure out how this became an Alonso vs Massa thread.
Massa is doing his job, and has done quite a good job the past few years. I am not an Alonso fan, or should I say I am as long as he drives for my team.
And I had no problems at all with Kimi. He may not be as complete a driver as Alonso, but he's just as fast and brave. Im still waiting for a
Ferrari driver to win Spa, especially in a car as bad as the F60 was.
I will bet you that it is in Alonso's contract that Massa is not allowed to finish ahead of him. You think thats unheard of? I dont.
And yes you are missing something...Ferrari is a team..they know more than all of us, they still have Massa, so they must see something that the people on this board
dont, or simply cant. Stop knokin the guy. I know some of these thing may be hard for the people who are only here for Alonso,
I am only here for Ferrari. SO if Alonso is the best, he better durn well drive like it.

[Nova]

Now Im going to say something after I went off a bit.

Nando has came out and voiced his support for Felipe, and more than once. They get along ok and
try their best to win with and for the team, and themselves of course.

If Nando is man enough to come out and voice his support for Felipe, what does that tell me about
the kind of people that come here just to tear Felipe down? If you guys love Nando so much, mabey you
should try to be more like him. I do think he is an amazing driver, plus he has the courage not to kick
someone when theyre having a bit of a nasty time.

[FER]

the courage not to kick
someone when theyre having a bit of a nasty time.

lol

Dude, most of us here wanted Massa replaced, because he didn't meet the expectations quite a while. Most of us don't have anything personal against Massa, as we all are happy for his good race in Monaco. But you need to understand we first support Ferrari, and, it's a fact, so you have to admit it, Massa didn't help Ferrari a lot last 1,5-2 years. Phrases like "man enough" and "courage" have nothing to do with a forum, where we share our opinions. Or maybe you think Alonso's opinion about how Massa performs last 2 years would be very positive? Don't anwer me, it was a rhetorical question.

[Nova]

^Courage has nothing to do with a forum where "most of us"?? share our opinions??
Hmm interesting...Isnt that what Im doing?
I dont think you understood what I said. Alonso voiced his opinion.
You voiced yours. His is positive, yours isnt. I didnt realize you were setting the guidelines for the forum.
Mabey you should just "sack" me.

[FER]

^Courage has nothing to do with a forum where "most of us"?? share our opinions??
Hmm interesting...Isnt that what Im doing?
I dont think you understood what I said. Alonso voiced his opinion.
You voiced yours. His is positive, yours isnt. I didnt realize you were setting the guidelines for the forum.
Mabey you should just "sack" me.

Obviously you didn't get what I was trying to say. No problem, gonna explain it again.
What you quoted was not Alonso's opinion about how Massa performs last 2 years, but a try to boost Felipe's confidence and nothing more, which indirectly sounds a bit negatively to me.
And, no, one more time, it is not a matter of "courage" or being "man enough" not to blame Massa, what you was trying to announce, because

it's a fact, so you have to admit it, Massa didn't help Ferrari a lot last 1,5-2 years

and

we first support Ferrari

.

[REDARMYSOJA]

lol

Dude, most of us here wanted Massa replaced,

I'm not so sure that is a majority opinion.

[FER]

I'm not so sure that is a majority opinion.

Sorry again, my English is bad, try this one:
"Most of who wanted Massa replaced..."
Got it?

[Nova]

Obviously you didn't get what I was trying to say. No problem, gonna explain it again.
What you quoted was not Alonso's opinion about how Massa performs last 2 years, but a try to boost Felipe's confidence and nothing more, which indirectly sounds a bit negatively to me.
And, no, one more time, it is not a matter of "courage" or being "man enough" not to blame Massa, what you was trying to announce, because and .

How do you know about Alonsos opinion? Did he tell you that? I dont know him. All I can say is that he
certainly doesnt appear to have a problem with Felipe.
Sure I want him to do better, we all do, or most of us anyway...and I think he will.
You misunderstood what I said about courage. Thats ok.

[Tifoso]

How do you know about Alonsos opinion? Did he tell you that? I dont know him. All I can say is that he
certainly doesnt appear to have a problem with Felipe.
Sure I want him to do better, we all do, or most of us anyway...and I think he will.
You misunderstood what I said about courage. Thats ok.

You could argue that he gets along with Felipe because he doesn't perceive him as a threat.
Didn't get along too well with Ramilton, for example. Of course, Ramilton is a jackass.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

May I have some specifics on how the F2012 was built specifically for Alonso and not built to make it as fast as the team thought possible? What exactly is it that makes it a car tailored for Fernando & not Felipe? It's preposterous that some here think the team didn't ask Felipe what he needs/needed changed/tweaked on the car to help him perform better? Seriously? If I believed this and was a Felipe fan first as some here, I would certainly want him out of this team.

As for Fernando & Felipe's relationship, I think it's obvious they two like each other. Fernando has cemented himself as the leader of this team, therefore he's not going to come out and say "Felipe is effing it up right now" "he's lost it" or "he needs to be replaced" because that's not what a leader does. A leader gives support and leads by example. This doesn't mean he hasn't thought to himself these things, heck I don't know. Either way it's not Fernando's job to worry about if Felipe needs to be replaced or not. As a leader he wants to see the team do well. This includes both drivers. That's Stefano's job.

But I think it's unfair to say because Fernando hasn't been critical of him, then others shouldn't when clearly both big bosses at Ferrari have expressed their dissatisfaction with the early race performances. Anyhow, as I said before Monaco I think Felipe has turned a corner. I think he's back to his old self and will perform well throughout the rest of the season. If he does, he should be with Ferrari in 2013. If he doesn't the team must sit down and explore their options and see what's what. But I don't think it'll come to that, I think(hope) Felipe will continue the form shown in Monaco and be with team in 2013.

[Greig]

I would imagine the team is focused on Fernando and as such they will design a car that suits him where they can, just as they used to do with MS. They are not paying Fernando all that money for nothing, he is the focus of the team.

[radosav]

in 2010 car should have suit massa better because he was in ferrari for many years and alonso drove ferrari for the first time in winter tests, but we all know who drove better that season, so story about making car to suit one driver doesn't have much sense

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I would imagine the team is focused on Fernando and as such they will design a car that suits him where they can, just as they used to do with MS. They are not paying Fernando all that money for nothing, he is the focus of the team.

What ever are you talking about? Please quit being vague about these supposed differences for Fernando and provide some proof or examples or just stop saying it. Are you saying they made the front wing to Fernando's liking? Or the rear wing? Both front & rear suspensions are completely new to the team so there's no favoritism there. Steering wheel is basically the same. I'll give you they made the seating position more in Fernando's favor, but Felipe's mold gets him where he likes it and they've adjusted the mirrors. But surely since you are putting part of Felipe's lack of performance down to Ferrari making the car to Fernando's liking you have some specific examples and not just seating position.

I think the fact Felipe uses the new turning vanes shows he prefers a different balance to Fernando but people saying they made the car to suit Fernando is rubbish, plain and simple.

[Nova]

What ever are you talking about? Please quit being vague about these supposed differences for Fernando and provide some proof or examples or just stop saying it. Are you saying they made the front wing to Fernando's liking? Or the rear wing? Both front & rear suspensions are completely new to the team so there's no favoritism there. Steering wheel is basically the same. I'll give you they made the seating position more in Fernando's favor, but Felipe's mold gets him where he likes it and they've adjusted the mirrors. But surely since you are putting part of Felipe's lack of performance down to Ferrari making the car to Fernando's liking you have some specific examples and not just seating position.

I think the fact Felipe uses the new turning vanes shows he prefers a different balance to Fernando but people saying they made the car to suit Fernando is rubbish, plain and simple.

Yea, but we really dont know the truth, do we?

[XXX132]

Felipe's car is designed for him. It's go a number six on it. If it was designed for Fernando it would have a number five on it, crossed out, and with a "6" written on in marker pen underneath it ;)

Hopefully FM has finally turned the corner and can keep it going. Looks like his role as underperforming team mate has been taken over by Button.