Dear International Press... (e-mail protest against the English press)

[Greig]

Doesn't mean it was in the slightest way convincing..... and I speak as someone who would have been happy to be convinced by my drivers and team.

Because you have choosen to ignore most of the things and focus on your feelings for Massa to be perfectly honest Stefano and Luca were perfectly convincing despite the BBC leading questions.

[Sianellen]

Team orders are not allowed correct, driver agreements are not a team order Felipe was in no way ordered to move, not once by the team.

If that is true and it was all Felipe's decision by himself based on the data he was presented with then I can sort of see your point

[Tifosi]

Because you have choosen to ignore most of the things and focus on your feelings for Massa to be perfectly honest Stefano and Luca were perfectly convincing despite the BBC leading questions.

your opinion. . This all boils down to how you read what was said and how it was said. Nice to think it was a driver decision. However, if that was clearly the truth, then how come Massa has "changed his mind" about what he would do this week-end if the situation arises again?

Maybe you are choosing not to see the inconsistancies in our "truth"!

[LAROSA SpA]

I know that name does, I just find it amusing how he has used it, when he wants us to get away with something they got away with, that is in both cases something against the current rules.

I know that the teams will bend the rules (cheat) to try to get an advantage & I can live with that (I'd do it if I were in the same position).
The thing that really gets to me is their hypocrisy against us. When we are winning we are constantly cheating in their eyes & are killing the sport, but when we are doing they come out in the press stating they don't know whats happening to Ferrari & with all their resources experience etc. we should be doing better in a underlying patronising tone.

Plus this is a Ferrari forum & I don't like McLaren

[Greig]

your opinion. . This all boils down to how you read what was said and how it was said. Nice to think it was a driver decision. However, if that was clearly the truth, then how come Massa has "changed his mind" about what he would do this week-end if the situation arises again?

Maybe you are choosing not to see the inconsistancies in our "truth"!

He said he will win, for that I take it he won't let Alonso prove he is quicker, and therefore benefit from the agreement they both have with the team to make sure the fastest car is in front and they are not battling to cost themselves time and to risk a collision. Or maybe Alonso will be quicker again as has been the case for most of the season, we shall have to wait and see if we are in such a position again, let's hope so anyway

[Sianellen]

I know that the teams will bend the rules (cheat) to try to get an advantage & I can live with that (I'd do it if I were in the same position).
The thing that really gets to me is their hypocrisy against us. When we are winning we are constantly cheating in their eyes & are killing the sport, but when we are doing they come out in the press stating they don't know whats happening to Ferrari & with all their resources experience etc. we should be doing better in a underlying patronising tone.

I don't really like it whoever does it, but thats just my view. I do see what you are saying though

Plus this is a Ferrari forum & I don't like McLaren

[Tifosi]

He said he will win, for that I take it he won't let Alonso prove he is quicker, and therefore benefit from the agreement they both have with the team to make sure the fastest car is in front and they are not battling to cost themselves time and to risk a collision. Or maybe Alonso will be quicker again as has been the case for most of the season, we shall have to wait and see if we are in such a position again, let's hope so anyway

I just hate it when we make ourselves look like we did - regardless of the circumstances. Hopefully we don't trip ourselves up or look like we did last Sunday cos evryone will be waiting for it to happen. The 3 second rule could either save our reputation or bite us hard.

[LAROSA SpA]

I don't really like it whoever does it, but thats just my view. I do see what you are saying though

Thats cool your more than entitled to your view & me mine, otherwise the Forum would be pretty boring

[Sianellen]

Thats cool your more than entitled to your view & me mine, otherwise the Forum would be pretty boring

Definatly

[Anni]

your opinion. . This all boils down to how you read what was said and how it was said. Nice to think it was a driver decision. However, if that was clearly the truth, then how come Massa has "changed his mind" about what he would do this week-end if the situation arises again?

Maybe you are choosing not to see the inconsistancies in our "truth"!

In my opinion it was a driver choice, not a driver desicion. The word desicion implies Massa agreed Alonso should be granted this win and the "plea" of the team to move over was the right thing to do. In my opinion he didn´t agree with that desicion and was very hurt by it, he didn´t see why he should move over, he had a right to win. He didn´t move over because he was a coward who was afraid to loose his job. Massa has often pointed out Ferrari is his second family. If your family would ask something from you which you are in fact not willing to give but you know it would make your family happy, how would you act?
He obeyed because the team was more important to him than his own happiness! That´s my opinion.

Now he changed his mind because he saw it has done nothing good. Neither him nor the team. Ferrari has received a lot of negativ press and the great double win was overshadowed completely. Massa has lost a lot of fans (though I don´t know of they could really be called "fans") and he lost a lot of support from Brazil.
His generous gesture has fired back and that is why he wouldn´t act like that again in my opinion.

[Italian Spirit]

Doesn't mean it was in the slightest way convincing..... and I speak as someone who would have been happy to be convinced by my drivers and team.

Oh please Tifosi, stop behaving like an Outraged Virtuous Virgin. There is nothing to be convinced about.
Ferrari, like everybody else and since the beginning of F1, gave teams orders, so what?
What are you complaining about, the lack of hypocrisy? You would have preferred a "Save fuel!", a "Watch the brakes!", a "Your tyres need more care!", a slightly longer pit stop? :
Por favor, give us a break.

[Italian Spirit]

An addendum to my previous post, an answer to Tifosi

Excerpt from "Le Matin", a Swiss daily (translated by Italian Spirit)

Massa: I'm not the number 2
(...)
In this din of opinions (after the German GP) Mark Webber had the most sensible remark: "Ferrari was right to do so" said the Australian. "The team has given a chance to Massa who has been very fast during the first stint, but on hard tires it was slower so Alonso was slowed down. It was logical to ask him to move over. If Felipe had managed to create a gap on Fernando, Ferrari would have let him win. It was up to Felipe to manage to be the fastest ..."
Mark Webber also believes that Ferrari has done well to act openly: "They could dress up the matter in a fictitious pit stop, or by prolonging a tire change. Nobody would have seen anything.
I prefer it to be clear ... "
(...)[/I]

http://www.lematin.ch/sports/formule...ne-no-2-305194

I personally think Mark is one of the most honest persons in the circus of F1, but I don't know if he meets the moral standards of Tifosi...

[coolrunnings_99]

Of course he ll say that.
Cause for his car to move over for a teammate, no pit radio will work or anything similar, anyways.
Perhaps a bazooka shot from the pits, but then you get the same result as if you kept shtum, the whole race around

[Tifosi]

Oh please Tifosi, stop behaving like an Outraged Virtuous Virgin. There is nothing to be convinced about.
Ferrari, like everybody else and since the beginning of F1, gave teams orders, so what?
What are you complaining about, the lack of hypocrisy? You would have preferred a "Save fuel!", a "Watch the brakes!", a "Your tyres need more care!", a slightly longer pit stop? :
Por favor, give us a break.

Sorry i'm annoying you dude. I didn't realise we all had to fall in line with your point of view before it could be classed as a valid opinion.

Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment - yes. Then we wouldnt have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinised over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC (that's a fact btw).

As i've said about 60 times, i understand that team orders are part of F1 and that everybody does it. That point is well trodden and irrelevant and I never ever said that they didnt or that we are the only team that implement them .

The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious. The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former.

As regards the accusation of being an Outraged Virtuous Virgin, i can assure you that I fail to qualify under all three catagories.

[theodorus8864]

Sorry i'm annoying you dude. I didn't realise we all had to fall in line with your point of view before it could be classed as a valid opinion.

Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment - yes. Then we wouldnt have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinised over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC (that's a fact btw).

As i've said about 60 times, i understand that team orders are part of F1 and that everybody does it. That point is well trodden and irrelevant and I never ever said that they didnt or that we are the only team that implement them .

The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious. The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former.

As regards the accusation of being an Outraged Virtuous Virgin, i can assure you that I fail to qualify under all three catagories.

Points taken. Can't avoid the facts that we were not doing the team orders as 'clean' as other teams do, which risked the team facing consequences by FIA and WMSC.
Assignment for the team to sort out the way at its best.

[racingbradley]

I personally think Mark is one of the most honest persons in the circus of F1, but I don't know if he meets the moral standards of Tifosi...

Maybe Mark would not be "one of the most honest people in the circus of F1" if he had been on the receiving end last Sunday---I rather think he would have ignored/misunderstood the call from his race engineer!!!!!
Do you think that Tifosi is alone in his thinking???????
There are a lot more of us.

[flam147]

i just find it funny that nothing was said by the stewards untill the bbc started stiring it afterwards

[mad_ani]

Team orders are not allowed correct, driver agreements are not a team order Felipe was in no way ordered to move, not once by the team.

And yes if others get away with it then it does entitle us to get away with it, can't have rules for some and rules for others

Originally Posted by mad_ani
Why does Massa have to be told who the faster of the 2 cars is??I do know that drivers like Vettel ask the team radio...this was a case where Rob told him, and ask him if he understood the message???
Why??because Massa's english is so bad, he didnt know what magnanimous meant???

Alonso was faster than Massa in Australia...why was he not told the same then???

Originally Posted by Greig
Are you a bit slow? we all know what it was, it was a order to move, no need for your riddles

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Are you not contradicting yourself??

[REDARMYSOJA]

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Are you not contradicting yourself??

No, he's not. Felipe was never told to move over, but we all know what was going on.

[adaco]

Okay, I have some news for all.

This email was the first thing commented on the paddock yesteraday. We were announced on the Valencian TV, and in some blogs of some press. Now they know who am I, and I'll tell you the next step will be a petition online like the one of 2007. I'll tell you something when it will be done, but, like the one of 2007, we'll need to make it in all languages possible.

See you!

[LAROSA SpA]

Okay, I have some news for all.

This email was the first thing commented on the paddock yesteraday. We were announced on the Valencian TV, and in some blogs of some press. Now they know who am I, and I'll tell you the next step will be a petition online like the one of 2007. I'll tell you something when it will be done, but, like the one of 2007, we'll need to make it in all languages possible.

See you!

Good work

[Italian Spirit]

Sorry i'm annoying you dude. I didn't realise we all had to fall in line with your point of view before it could be classed as a valid opinion.

Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment - yes. Then we wouldnt have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinised over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC (that's a fact btw).

As i've said about 60 times, i understand that team orders are part of F1 and that everybody does it. That point is well trodden and irrelevant and I never ever said that they didnt or that we are the only team that implement them .

The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious. The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former.

As regards the accusation of being an Outraged Virtuous Virgin, i can assure you that I fail to qualify under all three catagories.

I gladly accept the last line of your post, take back the terms Outraged Virtuous Virgin, congratulate you not to qualify for any of such terms and appreciate your humor. Quite rare around here, sometimes.

Now let's go back to the first line of your post: wasted irony, amico, I simply expressed my opinion on a fact and… on your opinion.

You write:
"Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment"
(…)
"The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious."

What a hymn to hypocrisy, Tifosi!

The same hypocrisy that you denounce in a circumlocution worthy of the best (or worst) UNO's Diplomats:

"The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former".

Wait, let me breath…

And I quote you again:

"Then we wouldn't have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinized over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC"

Ferrari isn't simply a team; Ferrari is a legend and the very soul of F1. As such it always had, and always will, raise heat upon itself, as well as envy, jealousy and micro-scrutinizing (and spying, and stealing, and…).
Many enemies, much honor!

As for the WMSC…

All this being said, keep posting Tifosi. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, I think).
I'll watch for your posts. It's refreshing to read somebody who respects grammar and syntax.

[Tifosi]

I gladly accept the last line of your post, take back the terms Outraged Virtuous Virgin, congratulate you not to qualify for any of such terms and appreciate your humor. Quite rare around here, sometimes.

Now let's go back to the first line of your post: wasted irony, amico, I simply expressed my opinion on a fact and… on your opinion.

You write:
"Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment"
(…)
"The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious."

What a hymn to hypocrisy, Tifosi!

The same hypocrisy that you denounce in a circumlocution worthy of the best (or worst) UNO's Diplomats:

"The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former".

Wait, let me breath…

And I quote you again:

"Then we wouldn't have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinized over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC"

Ferrari isn't simply a team; Ferrari is a legend and the very soul of F1. As such it always had, and always will, raise heat upon itself, as well as envy, jealousy and micro-scrutinizing (and spying, and stealing, and…).
Many enemies, much honor!

As for the WMSC…

All this being said, keep posting Tifosi. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, I think).
I'll watch for your posts. It's refreshing to read somebody who respects grammar and syntax.

A most verbose yet directionless missive mio amico. I've read it twice now but still fail to see my own hypocrisy - please enlighten me in simple and clear terms (if possible) so that i can understand it and feel suitably regretful and ashamed.

I also seem to have completely bypassed the irony of which you speak - although i've noticed that people tend to speak of "irony" when it isn't there - which is ironic in itself I always find!

Also, I appreciate the sentiment at the end dude but can't help wishing that you had toned down the patronising manner in which you proclaim your noble point which seems to me to be "Ferrari are Ferrari so there" and explain to me if it was meant to mean something else!

Finally, you don't seem to have acknowledged my point which was that I never said Team Orders were peculiar to Ferrari. In fact i'm not sure you got my point at all!

[MASSUM THE GREATEST]

All this being said, keep posting Tifosi. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, I think).

That quote is often attributed to Voltaire but is unsubstantiated. It is actually by S.G. Tallentyre who was merely seeking to encapsulate Voltaire's feeling towards another author.

[Suzie]

That quote is often attributed to Voltaire but is unsubstantiated. It is actually by S.G. Tallentyre who was merely seeking to encapsulate Voltaire's feeling towards another author.

I agree. And while we're on philosophy, let me just offer this:

"All we are is dust in the wind, dude." Bill and Ted, 1989.

Thanks for making this thread more highbrow, Italian Spirit. Thank you a thousand times.

[Tifosi]

Mmmm... then I guess the moral is, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Maybe there is no moral, Mom.

"Exactly! It's just a bunch of stuff that happened." Homer (1991)

[Kingdom Hearts]

The Spanish TV is going to show the press conference today, I hope someone upload it to youtube.

[Italian Spirit]

A most verbose yet directionless missive mio amico. I've read it twice now but still fail to see my own hypocrisy - please enlighten me in simple and clear terms (if possible) so that i can understand it and feel suitably regretful and ashamed.

I also seem to have completely bypassed the irony of which you speak - although i've noticed that people tend to speak of "irony" when it isn't there - which is ironic in itself I always find!

Also, I appreciate the sentiment at the end dude but can't help wishing that you had toned down the patronising manner in which you proclaim your noble point which seems to me to be "Ferrari are Ferrari so there" and explain to me if it was meant to mean something else!

Finally, you don't seem to have acknowledged my point which was that I never said Team Orders were peculiar to Ferrari. In fact i'm not sure you got my point at all!

You, Tifosi, calling me "verbose"? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Your last post is cerebral onanism, so I think it's decent of me to let you alone...

[Tifosi]

You, Tifosi, calling me "verbose"? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Your last post is cerebral onanism, so I think it's decent of me to let you alone...

OK dude. if you don't intend to explain yourself or answer any points raised then fine. So long as I know

[Italian Spirit]

Mmmm... then I guess the moral is, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Maybe there is no moral, Mom.

"Exactly! It's just a bunch of stuff that happened." Homer (1991)

Would have been surprised you quoted the other Homer, you know, the ancient Greek?