Ferrari fined and summoned to WMSC after German GP team orders

[steelstallions]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8852918.stm


Ferrari bosses have been called to the race stewards after explicitly denying using team orders to change the result of the German Grand Prix.

Felipe Massa, who was leading the race, slowed down on lap 49 to allow winner and team-mate Fernando Alonso to pass.

Communications director Luca Colajanni said afterwards that the incident was "a driver decision".

"We didn't give any instruction at all. I don't think anything wrong has been done, or regulation breached."

Colajanni added: "Fernando was slightly quicker at that stage, and we informed the drivers."

Great, from what should have been a massive celebration of a major come back and a one-two victory, I am first made to feel uncomfortable with the way the Team Order was given and now we might have all the points taken off us.
Ferrari have even messed up an emphatic victory, what a bloody horrible season after another horrible season

[Agron]

Indeed the way it was handled was clumsy at best. But still they don't have any way to prove there was wrongdoing so apart from the bad publicity I don't think they can do anything about it. And if they do, there could be hell to pay for it if Ferrari proves it would be an illegal penalty.

[Mrs Hakkinen]

listening to the guys on the red button look like ferrari could get a fine for what has happened...

[Hermann]

I would safely bet that if this had happened with Mcca or RB- we would have heard absoltuely nothing about it. Zero. Zilch.

But two quick Ferrari's are too threatening. They will find something to keep them in check.

[mad_ani]

Fernando Alonso is insisting he has no clue why he was able to overtake team-mate Felipe Massa so easily to claim the German GP victory.

Gaining on his team-mate in the aftermath of their pit stops, Massa did an exactly job keeping the Spaniard at bay, much to Alonso's frustration. "This is ridiculous," he said over the team radio.

However, Massa proved it wasn't by putting in a spate of fastest laps to etch out a lead of almost three seconds over Alonso.

But when that lead began to falter and was down to just under a second, Massa was asked over the team radio if he "understood" that "Fernando is faster than you".

He did as he moved aside to let the double World Champ take the lead off him, which Alonso held through to the chequered flag.

The Spaniard, though, is adamant he had no idea what was going on.

"Well I think I don't know what happened. I saw Felipe a little bit slow and I took the opportunity," he said.

"I think some times you are quick, some times you are slow, depending on what stage your tyres are, some parts maybe I was quicker than him, some parts he was pulling away from Sebastian and me.

"It's difficult to judge."

But whatever backlash Ferrari now face, it was still a great weekend the team, who showed certain signs of improvement.

"I think it was a good weekend. We did improve the car a lot, immediately from Friday we felt very competitive. All the set-up adjustments worked well, we know some circuits it will be better others worse," said Alonso.

"But a good result for the team, top three in qualifying, top two in the race. A good performance from the team, hopefully next weekend in Hungary I can do it again."



Driver decision??

Funny how Alonso didnt know how he got past Massa.....

[Greig]

How would Alonso know? the radio went to Massa not Alonso, he thought Massa had a problem

[Mrs Hakkinen]

I would safely bet that if this had happened with Mcca or RB- we would have heard absoltuely nothing about it. Zero. Zilch.

But two quick Ferrari's are too threatening. They will find something to keep them in check.

you could be right there,

[justjesper]

Don't be naive. He knew exactly what happened when Massa parked his car on the side of the road.

[Greig]

Don't be naive. He knew exactly what happened when Massa parked his car on the side of the road.

Parked? he slowed out of a corner like he could have a problem, but keep up your Alonso hatred it really suits you :-)

[steelstallions]

Alonso benefited from the team order but nothing was relayed to him that it was about to happen, Alonso would have just taken the place as his team mate slowed down, the fustration is with the team NOT an opportunity to bash Alonso for what the team did for him.
Why did Vettel get the new front wing? because he had more points said the team principle, so that's that then!

[mad_ani]

How would Alonso know? the radio went to Massa not Alonso, he thought Massa had a problem

I am guessing then Michael 's overtake of Rubens in Austria 2002 and 2003 was that because Rubens had a problem just before the finish line??So was Kimi's in China 2008 when Massa overtook him :lol

But, why was Alonso saying its ridiculous?? Was Massa being ahead of him ridiculous???

[mad_ani]

A resigned Felipe Massa summed up his German GP best when he told the post-race press conference "pass please", which is pretty much what Ferrari told him.

Leading his team-mate Fernando Alonso for 49 laps of Sunday's 67-lap grand prix, Massa finally got the call from Ferrari to allow the Spaniard, who was right on his rear wing, by.

Rob Smedley told the Brazilian: "So Fernando is faster than you? Can you confirm you understand that message?"

And he did.

Massa slowed down at Turn Six - and rather blatantly slowed down - to let Alonso by, which was followed by a "sorry" from Smedley.

But given that team orders are banned in Formula One, there was no way either driver, who did everything but celebrate on the podium, was willing to admit to using them in the post-race press conference.

Asked 'what happened' that he let his team-mate into the lead, Massa said: "I don't think I need to say anything about that."

Pressed on the subject as to whether he had made a mistake, he responded: "Pass please."

But, playing the team game, Massa did concede that "the best you can do is first and second so as a team we achieved the best result possible".

However, one can only imagine how badly Massa, a year to the day after suffering life-threatening injuries, wanted that 'first' to have his name alongside it.

[F2007]

Maybe few of us here are so naive that believe Fernando didnt know what was going on... he was having a conversation with team for few laps before the order was handed. I think the tone of that conversation is clear now. He was right about he needed those points more than Massa, but clearly they were pretty much on the same pace. It was awful to hear him screaming im a lot faster, when it clearly wasnt the case.

[justjesper]

Alonso is a :-( baby

[mad_ani]

Hmm...wonder why Rob smedley apologised for Massa 's mistake???

[Julie B]

Hmm...wonder why Rob smedley apologised for Massa 's mistake???

Supposedly he was 'sorry' for him not doing well with his tyres etc. (according to Stefano)

[Ferrari_gal]

I think this win of FA stinks !!!!!!!!!!!!! Massa was the winner in my eyes. I am very unhappy with what Ferrari did today to their driver....In my eyes that win belongs to Massa.

[Hermann]

Alonso is a :-( baby

Really? Where, when? For me the biggest crybabies are the ones who are constantly complaining about one of our drivers :lol

[Tommy_F]

NobleF1

Ferrari has been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motor Sport Council for team orders and bringing sport into disrepute

[Sianellen]

NobleF1 Ferrari has been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motor Sport Council for team orders and bringing sport into disrepute

[mad_ani]

Supposedly he was 'sorry' for him not doing well with his tyres etc. (according to Stefano)

Did Rob say that on the last 8 ocassions???:Hmm

[ferrari4life]

maybe they will give us a reprimand to open our account in the reprimand count thread

[mad_ani]

Supposedly he was 'sorry' for him not doing well with his tyres etc. (according to Stefano)

Did Rob say that on the last 8 ocassions???:Hmm

[Hermann]

Good grief. Can't wait for Maccfans and Kimibots and Alonso- haters for storming this place and cry *shame* all over.

[Ste]

How sad the FIA are.

Let's hope they call McLaren for telling their drivers to hold station in Turkey and Hockenheim and for every other team who has ever given an order to either switch position or to hold one.

Pathetic.

[Hermann]

How sad the FIA are.

Let's hope they call McLaren for telling their drivers to hold station in Turkey and Hockenheim and for every other team who has ever given an order to either switch position or to hold one.

Pathetic.

Maybe even now people will not believe what is so blanatly obvious: we are on the black list of FIA.

[Ferrari_gal]

Really? Where, when? For me the biggest crybabies are the ones who are constantly complaining about one of our drivers :lol

I agree with justjester !!!!!

[Curbs]

Let Massa pay the fine! Thank you Massa for what you have done! Brilliant!

[Hermann]

I agree with justjester !!!!!

You can agree as much as you want. Bashing one of our drivers won't change a thing.

[mad_ani]

Good grief. Can't wait for Maccfans and Kimibots and Alonso- haters for storming this place and cry *shame* all over.

and they can still be Ferrari fans...as they have been for a looong time:-)

[steelstallions]

NobleF1

Ferrari has been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motor Sport Council for team orders and bringing sport into disrepute

Link please as the google news msn news etc have nothing about that?

[Jacquesvw]

In 2007, Felipe let Kimi pass so that he can win the championship. In 2008 Kimi returned a favor by letting massa pass as well, so I don't see what the problem is.

[mad_ani]

Link please as the google news msn news etc have nothing about that?

Twitter of Noblef1

[Tommy_F]

Link please as the google news msn news etc have nothing about that?

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/239713/ferrari-fined-100-000-for-team-orders/
...

[Katu]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85552

[Sianellen]

Ferrari fined, referred to WMSC

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, July 25th 2010, 16:04 GMT


The FIA has announced that its World Motor Sport Council is to consider whether Ferrari should face further sanctions for the team orders controversy at the German Grand Prix, after the team was fined $100,000 for its actions.

Fernando Alonso was handed victory at Hockenheim after his Ferrari team-mate Felipe Massa sacrificed the lead on lap 48 - soon after the team had told the Brazilian that he was slower than the car behind him.

Although Ferrari has insisted that it did not issue a team order, and merely provided Massa with information, the race stewards after the German GP had a different opinion.

After speaking to team principal Stefano Domenicali, team manager Massimo Rivola, plus Alonso and Massa to examine the events of the afternoon, the race stewards decided that the regulations had been broken.

In a statement issued on Sunday night, the FIA stated that a breach of Article 39.1, which bans team orders, and 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed.

It said that the penalty would be: "Fine $100,000. The case will also be referred to the FIA World Motorsport Council for further consideration."

[steelstallions]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/239713/ferrari-fined-100-000-for-team-orders/
...

Thanks, though I was hoping the "referred to the World Motorsport Council (WMSC)." would have been left out and it was just a fine

[Agron]

and they can still be Ferrari fans...as they have been for a looong time:-)Don't LOL at us please, it's pretty obvious you don't care about Ferrari or Massa, just about Alonso, in the wrong way.

[steelstallions]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8852918.stm


Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for breaching sporting regulations after appearing to implement team orders during the German Prix.

The Italian team has also been referred to the sport's governing body, the FIA, after Felipe Massa slowed down to allow team-mate Fernando Alonso past to win.

However the result of the race, won by Alonso from Massa, is unaffected.

[BigRedOne]

How sad the FIA are.

Let's hope they call McLaren for telling their drivers to hold station in Turkey and Hockenheim and for every other team who has ever given an order to either switch position or to hold one.

Pathetic.

Salute! This decision is really a damn shame.

[shostak]

Salute! This decision is really a damn shame.

Another one from maFIA...

[ferrari4life]

100,000 dollars..seems a little excessive...surely Ferrari will appeal. they dont have a leg to stand on

[Ste]

100,000 dollars..seems a little excessive...surely Ferrari will appeal. they dont have a leg to stand on

They were fined a million for Austria 2002 when there were no rules, so I doubt they will appeal that.

[WRX202]

here comes the fun...
I never liked Ferrari's recent approach towards the FIA in the past 2-3 races. Yes, there have been issues that hurt Alonso but boy oh boy now they're [FIA] gonna have pay back handed to them on a silver tray. Too many words were said on the team radio which were not neccessary, Alonso's: This is ridiculous!, FM Engineer's: Confirm you understand & Sorry. They were shots directed at their own feet.
If Alonso was that much faster why not try and overtake him later? Everyone pointed fingers to MS and RB in 2002, and suddenly it's ok for Alonso and Massa? Many easily forgot that team orders were banned just after that issue. or is it Ferrari 1st only when one feels pleased to? Having both finish in 1-2 in any order was the same points for the team. It's only the WDC that would change.
What's done is done. Pity for this to ruin such a resurgence and a fantastic 1-2.
I am just baffled that Ferrari with all their experience opted to such an open move when they could have easily made Felipe "change fuel mappings" or maybe "pit for fresh tyres" or "slow down cause of engine temperature"... All teams have orders but at least do not insult the viewers intelligence in this way.

[mad_ani]

A similar precedent followed from the spygate and crash gate...

Team gets called to WMC....drivers get away with Immunity or remain unaffected....team gets a fine and a reprimand

[Julie B]

I think this will open a great big can of worms, not only for us but for other teams that have done this in the past, whatever the outcome it's going to be interesting:-??

[Tifosi]

I think this will open a great big can of worms, not only for us but for other teams that have done this in the past, whatever the outcome it's going to be interesting:-??

well, we wanted a rule change..... I think we might just get one this time! :-s

[Tech_Skill]

nge.
What's done is done. Pity for this to ruin such a resurgence and a fantastic 1-2.
I am just baffled that Ferrari with all their experience opted to such an open move when they could have easily made Felipe "change fuel mappings" or maybe "pit for fresh tyres" or "slow down cause of engine temperature"... All teams have orders but at least do not insult the viewers intelligence in this way.

Spot on, Smedley and Massa handled that very badly, this has the potential to mess up our season.

But to be honest, im surprised they didnt do it sooner, 100% correct decision made, we cannot allow ourselves to take points off our own main championship contender, if we didnt do the switch today, the other teams would have laughed their heads off at us. We did the right thing, but your right, how we did it was a joke.

[mad_ani]

100,000 dollars..seems a little excessive...surely Ferrari will appeal. they dont have a leg to stand on

Nah...dont worry...Santander will pay for that one....;-)

[Julie B]

Someone pointed out though that the last few times a team as been referred to the WMSC there's been one driver in common.....McLaren, Renault and now Ferrari :-)

[Tifoso]

well, we wanted a rule change..... I think we might just get one this time! :-s


I hope that they just return officially to a "team orders allowed as long as it isn't overly obvious" rule.

[Curbs]

Smedley should never talk in a teamradio again. He almost as stupid as Massa today. Choose your words better!!!

[Tifoso]

Spot on, Smedley and Massa handled that very badly, this has the potential to mess up our season.

But to be honest, im surprised they didnt do it sooner, 100% correct decision made, we cannot allow ourselves to take points off our own main championship contender, if we didnt do the switch today, the other teams would have laughed their heads off at us. We did the right thing, but your right, how we did it was a joke.

Exactly. Are you really in Maranello? :love (you do not have to respond)

[Julie B]

Smedley should never talk in a teamradio again. He almost as stupid as Massa today. Choose your words better!!!

Bit harsh....anyway it should really be up to the Team Principal to stay stuff like that...that could damage the relationship between the Race Engineer and the Driver IMO

[Tifoso]

Bit harsh....anyway it should really be up to the Team Principal to stay stuff like that...that could damage the relationship between the Race Engineer and the Driver IMO

Excellent point, amica mia :-)

[mad_ani]

Spot on, Smedley and Massa handled that very badly, this has the potential to mess up our season.

But to be honest, im surprised they didnt do it sooner, 100% correct decision made, we cannot allow ourselves to take points off our own main championship contender, if we didnt do the switch today, the other teams would have laughed their heads off at us. We did the right thing, but your right, how we did it was a joke.


Accusing Rob and Massa for not handling it correctly is wrong..We would still have gt 43 pts in WCC today...

[vcs316]

I hope they don't strip us of our WCC points...

[Tifosi]

I hope that they just return officially to a "team orders allowed as long as it isn't overly obvious" rule.

To me Lou, the issue is mainly one of cheating the race. i know i'm emotionally involved here but when it decides the winner, it makes the race a farce. I understand why Ferrari did it but I think it was a) way to early in the season to do it and b) the equivalent of kicking Massa in the nuts one year after he had his accident.

If I wanted my team to win regardless of how they did it, i'd become a McLaren supporter and not pretend to myself that I didnt care. :-)

[mad_ani]

Someone pointed out though that the last few times a team as been referred to the WMSC there's been one driver in common.....McLaren, Renault and now Ferrari :-)

Well said...all the time..the driver got away with immunity


Bad date for Massa...last year he almost gets killed and this year, on the same day..Ferrari are called to WMSC..really sad....

[Alonsomaniac]

Alonso is my favorite driver. But I want him to WIN the WDC, not being given presents.

[Hornet]

Teams have been and will continue to use team orders regardless of the outcome.

The only difference is how they carry it out in the eye of the public, but a team order is still a team order by any other means

[tropicalevo]

Spot on, Smedley and Massa handled that very badly, this has the potential to mess up our season.

But to be honest, im surprised they didnt do it sooner, 100% correct decision made, we cannot allow ourselves to take points off our own main championship contender, if we didnt do the switch today, the other teams would have laughed their heads off at us. We did the right thing, but your right, how we did it was a joke.

So you condone cheating. Come on guys - try winning by being the best! If Alonso could not pass Massa - tough. Come second! It's called RACING

[kingjuani]

Alonso benefited from the team order but nothing was relayed to him that it was about to happen, Alonso would have just taken the place as his team mate slowed down, the fustration is with the team NOT an opportunity to bash Alonso for what the team did for him.
Why did Vettel get the new front wing? because he had more points said the team principle, so that's that then!

Thats a very good point..people should not get angry at Alonso, the PIT wall made the decision..

[Curbs]

Accusing Rob and Massa for not handling it correctly is wrong...

No, thats the only way to go I´m afraid. I hope they don´t get a bonus come christmas. They were really stupid today. If I was Luca I would call Massa and really thank him for his services these past years, but they are no longer needed.

[Julie B]

Well said...all the time..the driver got away with immunity

FYI.... My quote doesn't mean I'm slating Alonso....I'm just pointing out some information

[shostak]

Someone pointed out though that the last few times a team as been referred to the WMSC there's been one driver in common.....McLaren, Renault and now Ferrari :-)

And what do you want to say with this? Alonso is as bad as Sauron, no? :lol

[tropicalevo]

Well said...all the time..the driver got away with immunity

Right on every time. Get rid of the SOB. Alonso only wins when he is the ONLY driver. Massa was having a great race. The poor guy has to to sleep tonight thinking about what happened today. He deserves more than that. He has been a true professional!

[Julie B]

And what do you want to say with this? Alonso is as bad as Sauron, no? :lol

No idea what you are on about ???

[512 TR]

Thank you Luca Cordero di Montezemolo for making Ferrari look like complete morons today. Ferrari need a change at the very top. :furious

"Bella figura" indeed!

Luca has a good track record in the past but sadly he brought Pandora's box to Maranello when he agreed to Santander and Alonso.

You reap what you sow and now there is total chaos. Just don't tell me you didn't see this coming. It was so obvious it would turn out like this.

On a side note.

Why could Kimi and Felipe co-function inside the team but Felipe and that joke pay driver can't?

[Julie B]

Right on every time. Get rid of the SOB. Alonso only wins when he is the ONLY driver. Massa was having a great race. The poor guy has to to sleep tonight thinking about what happened today. He deserves more than that. He has been a true professional!

:rollYawn, and please mind your language (even if it is abreviated !)

[tropicalevo]

In 2007, Felipe let Kimi pass so that he can win the championship. In 2008 Kimi returned a favor by letting massa pass as well, so I don't see what the problem is.

Duh - it's against the rules!

[Greig]

Right on every time. Get rid of the SOB. Alonso only wins when he is the ONLY driver. Massa was having a great race. The poor guy has to to sleep tonight thinking about what happened today. He deserves more than that. He has been a true professional!

Calling a Ferrari driver a SOB will see you quickly leave this forum :-)

[mad_ani]

FYI.... My quote doesn't mean I'm slating Alonso....I'm just pointing out some information

Wasnt it clear from your post, Alonso was the only common driver?? for the three teams???

[Greig]

Duh - it's against the rules!

Duh, why was the FIA not involved then? duh

[tropicalevo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8852918.stm

Come on guys. We should not have to cheat to win. We have the fastest car dammit.

[Julie B]

Wasnt it clear from your post, Alonso was the only common driver?? for the three teams???

Not clear at all that I was slating him ? I was pointing out facts which are things which are shared on this forum ?

[Tifosi]

No, thats the only way to go I´m afraid. I hope they don´t get a bonus come christmas. They were really stupid today. If I was Luca I would call Massa and really thank him for his services these past years, but they are no longer needed.

Thank heavaens for us you aint then.

[shostak]

If Ferrari gets penalty for this farce between Massa & Smedley these both must be fired inmediately. Massa knows how to let pass his teammate (Kimi Brazil'07) more covertly and not so obvious (and he made it to show he was forced to let pass his teammate), and the 'Sorry' from Smedley is a big, big mistake.
Sorry but to make these things like they (Massa & Smedley) made them today knowing FIA are against Ferrari this year is a BIG MISTAKE.

[Greig]

If Ferrari gets penalty for this farce between Massa & Smedley these both must be fired inmediately. Massa knows how to let pass his teammate (Kimi Brazil'07) more covertly and not so obvious (and he made it to show he was forced to let pass his teammate), and the 'Sorry' from Smedley is a big, big mistake.
Sorry but to make these things like they (Massa & Smedley) made them today knowing FIA are against Ferrari this year is a BIG MISTAKE.

Eh no

[tropicalevo]

To me Lou, the issue is mainly one of cheating the race. i know i'm emotionally involved here but when it decides the winner, it makes the race a farce. I understand why Ferrari did it but I think it was a) way to early in the season to do it and b) the equivalent of kicking Massa in the nuts one year after he had his accident.

If I wanted my team to win regardless of how they did it, i'd become a McLaren supporter and not pretend to myself that I didnt care. :-)

well said. I agree. It does not feel right

[Tifoso]

To me Lou, the issue is mainly one of cheating the race. i know i'm emotionally involved here but when it decides the winner, it makes the race a farce. I understand why Ferrari did it but I think it was a) way to early in the season to do it and b) the equivalent of kicking Massa in the nuts one year after he had his accident.

If I wanted my team to win regardless of how they did it, i'd become a McLaren supporter and not pretend to myself that I didnt care. :-)

I can sympathize with that viewpoint, mate. But it has happened throughout the history of F1.

I am a WCC guy (yes, I know we are toast in the actual WCC). With that, I care that Ferrari wins titles. Can't care less who actually gets the titles, really....in other words, I wish Ferrari to do whatever it takes so that it wins the WDC and WCC. Couldn't care less about the drivers.

Having said that, my dream is to see Felipe win the WDC next year.

[shostak]

Eh no

OK, but its my opinion. ;-)

[Curbs]

If Ferrari gets penalty for this farce between Massa & Smedley these both must be fired inmediately. Massa knows how to let pass his teammate (Kimi Brazil'07) more covertly and not so obvious (and he made it to show he was forced to let pass his teammate), and the 'Sorry' from Smedley is a big, big mistake.
Sorry but to make these things like they (Massa & Smedley) made them today knowing FIA are against Ferrari this year is a BIG MISTAKE.

SPOT ON! And those who deffend Massa in his actions today can´t call them self Ferrarifans. Becasue his actions today wasn´t for the team. It was all about him beeing childish and showing the world he should have won.

[Stormsearcher]

The 100,000 wont matter if we win the championship, atleast one of them. But this was really unnecessary. They could/should have been handled it better.
We are basically being fined for stupidity, not for the act itself, cause we have seen Mclaren and Redbull do the same this season... and have gotten away scott free only because they disguised it better.

Am sure Massa was hugely disappointed, and i felt for him... but he could have handled the conference better. If he cant do that, then he shouldnt have moved over to let alonso pass.

Am forced to think Rob didnt want to give that order either and hence it was done in such a blatant manner. I just hope there are no 2 camps within Ferrari now. It will be sad. Finally we have a competitive car. It cant be ruined by stuff like this.

This has left such a bitter taste. A 1-2, dream result, completely ruined. :-(

[Greig]

Duh - it's against the rules!

When you join a Ferrari forum, it's probably not the best idea to send a email to the site admin telling us that we are cheats and to get out of F1 :-)

[Hermann]

A victory is a victory but it leaves a bad taste everytimes something like that happens, at least to me.

And the way both drivers looked on the podium- with the quality of a funeral- tells me they didn't like it either. As a fan of Fernando, i love to see him win another race, and a 1-2 is always the best possible outcome, but its a bit harder to celebrate that way.

That the Massa-fans hate to see this is understandable. Though, as a Ferrari- fan, i have not forgotten how Schumacher won his 7 titles. There were teamorders everywhere, and some were even more obvious. Or how would you call 'let Michael pass for the championship'?

I didn't like it back then and i don't like it now, but if they wanted to give Fernando a better chance to keep up with the leading drivers in points, what do you expect Ferrari to do? Aside from hiding this better.

[Jacquesvw]

Duh - it's against the rules!

Duh, but no-one complained then...

[anoopvp]

If Ferrari gets penalty for this farce between Massa & Smedley these both must be fired inmediately. Massa knows how to let pass his teammate (Kimi Brazil'07) more covertly and not so obvious (and he made it to show he was forced to let pass his teammate), and the 'Sorry' from Smedley is a big, big mistake.
Sorry but to make these things like they (Massa & Smedley) made them today knowing FIA are against Ferrari this year is a BIG MISTAKE.

You are right, Massa is not a team player, he is a cry baby always unhappy for orders and he does not have any regards to team goal

[shostak]

If you are a true tifosi you will never understand one of our drivers finishing first and the other second when the second has more points in WDC and is behind leader by a gap of 47 points while the first has 77 points behind. This is the TRUE. Who is the first or second driver is not important.

[Katu]

Luca d said so to Fernando: 'If you come to drive for us, because we want you, you drive for a team, you drive for a group, you don't drive for yourself.' I'm sure Massa has heared the same speach... so nothing new here. not to say that i really aprove it, but c'est la vie

[Greig]

If you are a true tifosi you will never understand one of our drivers finishing first and the other second when the second has more points in WDC and is behind leader by a gap of 47 points while the first has 77 points behind. This is the TRUE. Who is the first or second driver is not important.

Horner made a comment that such a points difference equates to around 8 points under the old system, so while the totals look high, the actual difference in points was not so heavily in Fernando's favour.

[Tifoso]

You are right, Massa is not a team player, he is a cry baby always unhappy for orders and he does not have any regards to team goal

Now, let's not go too far in the other direction ;-)

[REDARMYSOJA]

If Ferrari gets penalty for this farce between Massa & Smedley these both must be fired inmediately. Massa knows how to let pass his teammate (Kimi Brazil'07) more covertly and not so obvious (and he made it to show he was forced to let pass his teammate), and the 'Sorry' from Smedley is a big, big mistake.
Sorry but to make these things like they (Massa & Smedley) made them today knowing FIA are against Ferrari this year is a BIG MISTAKE.


SPOT ON! And those who deffend Massa in his actions today can´t call them self Ferrarifans. Becasue his actions today wasn´t for the team. It was all about him beeing childish and showing the world he should have won.

Yeah, both Massa and Smedley could have been more discreet, but so could Stefano


“I was with the President, I had to report to him,” Domenicali told BBC Sport of his phone call with Ferrari’s Luca di Montezemolo. “We discussed before the start of the race, so it was good to finish this race in these conditions and I’m very pleased for that.

“I already know the question…to be honest, we felt Felipe was a little bit slower and Vettel was catching up. Honestly, I don’t think there’s much point in (talking about) that…team orders are not a problem.”

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/239685/domenicali-team-orders-are-not-a-problem/

[Julie B]

From autosport

Ferrari may have dominated the German Grand Prix, but its 1-2 was overshadowed by the team orders controversy that cost the team a $100,000 fine and being referred to the WMSC.



After the race, team boss Stefano Domenicali faced the press to give his take on the matter. This is what he said.



Q. Can you explain the team orders situation in Formula 1, and why this wasn't team orders?



Stefano Domenicali: I don't know if I have to explain to you what are team orders. What I can say from my side is that if you are referring to the situation we have in mind, we gave an information to Felipe about what was the situation. Because we have already seen in the past that certain situations could not give the best result to the team. That was the information we wanted to give and we leave the drivers to understand and take notice of it in order to make sure the team, in terms of the global results, gets the best.

Q. How is this different from Austria 2002?



SD: Honestly, I don't know. What we said to him today was an information about the situation behind. That is what we said today.

Q. Do you not think it was obvious that this was a call to Felipe to let Fernando pass?



SD: That is what you say, I did not say that. But I have to repeat what I already said. There is nothing to add on top of what I said. The more that we have information or comments, it doesn't change the situation. Really it is, for sure, a shame that in a situation like today with a great performance everyone is focused on this thing. It is the most important thing again that we always consider the team interest as the best thing for us, at least. That is what I can say.

Q. After so much politics and critics, can you really feel so happy after this 1-2 finish?



SD: Yes, for sure I am very happy. I understand from your comments that of course I am not happy about the outcome of this great performance of the team because of the pressure that we have from the outside on this specific element. It is something that is part of the feeling that I have now, but I need really to keep up, as a first priority, that the team has done a great job and recovered a very difficult situation after three very, very heavy grands prix - so I am pleased for them. That is very important.

Q. After today's situation, is it now clear that you have a number one and a number two driver?



SD: No. No.

Q. Why?



SD: Because otherwise I would have said yes.

Q. After today, do you think Felipe still has a chance to fight for the championship? If so, if they are together in the same situation, is it better for Felipe to give away to Fernando?



SD: No. I can answer to you that Felipe, first of all, I am very happy with the performance that he did, no doubt. It is consequential to the answer I have just given, by the fact that Felipe will have the chance and for the benefit of the team he will push for the championship, no doubt at all. There is no 1-2.

Q. You've been to the stewards. What did they want to ask you? And with this there will be controversy and bad feeling around your 1-2. Is there a way you could have handled it better?



SD: The stewards wanted to understand the situation. But honestly, a way to handle it better? I don't think so. The situation started really from the fact that we wanted to make sure that we did not have any difficult situation between our drivers. This is what we want. We want to have the team as the best thing.

Q. Not as a team principal but as a human being – was it the hardest race you ever had to watch?



SD: No. I have done a lot of races and I have seen a lot of things happening. As a human being I was much more emotionally involved when we had difficult situations like with Felipe last year – that was in my knowledge the most difficult that I lived.

Q. You mentioned last year. Did you not consider the human side of it all, especially on the anniversary of what the win would mean to Felipe?



SD: For sure, we know that it was very important for Felipe and that he will deserve a victory very soon. He has shown that he is keeping up, and next time I would like to share with him the victory to show what he said to your colleagues on the other side.

Q. This controversy has overshadowed the other one that is bubbling under about front wings. What is your situation with that, and have you received any communication from the FIA?



SD: No. I've seen some pictures of the wing, but you could see that they were taken from very different angles. So, I don't have anything to say on that. I feel that is part of the pressure that is part of the game.

Q. So no letter from the FIA?



SD: No.

Q. Felipe said in the press conference that the reason why the pass happened was because he was struggling with the hard tyres. But how do you explain that at the beginning he was struggling, then he built a gap of 3.5 seconds and then Fernando caught up?



SD: We wanted to control the race. We gave them certain targets in order to control and respect the pace from behind without any risk. We saw Vettel coming up; we informed our drivers that both were catching up. We were also managing that in order to protect the engine we had some laps with the same situation for both drivers, to have a little bit of saving on the engine. When we saw Vettel coming again, we said okay let's go up and push it because they are getting close. That is what we did in terms of management.

Q. This is a different situation from Austria 2002 because then you were dominant with no reason to do it, while here you are playing catch up and can make the decisions. Is it silly to have to go through this charade, or is it better to let teams just do what they want?



SD: It is a difficult question. I understand what you saying but at the end of the day there is always a merit and a logic for both of the scenarios. I think what is part of the situation is that, first of all, on one side there is the clear indication to protect the fight that every driver has to make sure they do whatever they can as fast as they can. You also have to think that the two drivers are a part of the team that is really a key factor of this situation. But the point is that it is a matter of consideration in order to make sure that there is no discussion.

Q. What would have been different today if you had let Massa win from Alonso?



SD: I think that I didn't do anything. We just informed Felipe about the situation and that is it.

Q. But what would have been different if Massa was in front?



SD: On the other side what I can say from the team perspective is that the next chance we can have, Felipe will be faster. I am pretty sure about it.

Q. Over the television we heard several radio messages. Why did Rob Smedley apologise to Felipe after he had let Fernando past?



SD: It was not an apology this way...You have to consider the fact, and you can check with his communication on the radio several times in the past, that Rob Smedley's is correctly in a very good conjunction with Felipe. This is the key of their success. He gave the information to Felipe and he saw what happened and he was not happy about the situation of the car that was not so fast – sorry – was slower than the other one.

Q. McLaren today told it drivers to save fuel and they stayed in the same position. Do you think Ferrari could make things not so clear?



SD: We did not make it so clear. We gave information to a driver and then it is up to the driver to manage the situation. It is as simple as that.

Q. Can you explain why you need to tell a driver who is leading that the one behind him is faster?

SD: Because as a team interest I want to avoid any difficult situations that arise. We have seen not many grands prix ago what has happened to some others, so we would like to avoid that.

[shostak]

Horner made a comment that such a points difference equates to around 8 points under the old system, so while the totals look high, the actual difference in points was not so heavily in Fernando's favour.

Do you really think Massa is capable to win WDC this year? I dont think so.

[Greig]

Q. After today's situation, is it now clear that you have a number one and a number two driver?

SD: No. No.

Q. Why?

SD: Because otherwise I would have said yes.

:lol

[Hermann]

With Smedley having also been broadcast as saying ‘Sorry’ to Massa, stewards confirmed that Article 39.1 of the international sporting code – the ban on team orders – and Article 151c – bringing the sport into disrepute – have both been broken.

Good grief.

[NJB13]

Don't like team orders, but it's a fact of life in F1. Far too much being made of this. It was a great win for the team and that's what counts. Referring this to the WMSC might be a good thing as it will be the ideal opportunity for us to raise the real problem within F1 - substandard stewards and inconsistent rulings.

[Greig]

Do you really think Massa is capable to win WDC this year? I dont think so.

No I don't, but I am just saying the points difference was not all that great, I think we done the right thing today :-)

[Tifoso]

Q. After today's situation, is it now clear that you have a number one and a number two driver?



SD: No. No.

Q. Why?



SD: Because otherwise I would have said yes.

Hahahahahahaha

Attaboy!

[FFFerrari]

Luca d said so to Fernando: 'If you come to drive for us, because we want you, you drive for a team, you drive for a group, you don't drive for yourself.' I'm sure Massa has heared the same speach... so nothing new here. not to say that i really aprove it, but c'est la vie

And the Santander told Luca D that certain spaniard is the no.1 driver and should get no.1 treatment. You sign the songs of the one paying the bills, and now it's clear who decides the songs.

[shostak]

No I don't, but I am just saying the points difference was not all that great, I think we done the right thing today :-)

:thumb

[shostak]

And the Santander told Luca D that certain spaniard is the no.1 driver and should get no.1 treatment. You sign the songs of the one paying the bills, and now it's clear who decides the songs.

Are you a tifosi? :-G

[Tech_Skill]

Where was Massa in the other races???

Exactly

This is why Alonso is getting preference, Lets not get silly here, Alonso beat Massa by 0.5 of a sec in Quali, he is clearly the better faster driver.

[Mollydog]

It’s not that Ferrari called team orders, it’s the obvious way they did it, and getting Rob to do the dirty work to his team mate, and at the same time robbing me and other viewers of seeing a great end to a good race
If Alonso was that fast why didn’t he overtake Massa without Rob having to inform Massa that he (Alonso) was faster? Funny that. As a very upset fan of F1 and then a Ferrari fan, I’d love to see this comes and bite Ferrari in the a$$ at the end of the season
And before most of you come back with the usual ****, I don’t give a ****, its my opinion like it or not

[Tifoso]

SPEED is on Ferrari's side :-E

[Rob]

We got a 1-2. Felipe was slower and struggling, would love to of seen him win but.... Fernando is our best shot at a Championship so......

We had fantatsic weekend, please people dont let this blind you to that fact. Our car was made massive gains, so big respect and thankyou to all team back in Maranello. If we are running 1-2 next weekend, with Felipe up front again, he will win. The Team comes first, the Teams INTEREST's comes first.

[Tifoso]

It’s not that Ferrari called team orders, it’s the obvious way they did it, and getting Rob to do the dirty work to his team mate, and at the same time robbing me and other viewers of seeing a great to a good race
If Alonso was that fast why didn’t he overtake Massa without Rob having to inform Massa that he (Alonso) was faster? Funny that. As a very upset fan of F1 and then a Ferrari fan, I’d love to see this comes and bite Ferrari in the a$$ at the end of the season
And before most of you come back with the usual , I don’t give a , its my opinion like it or not


Because the new rules make it impossible to pass on track

[FFFerrari]

With Smedley having also been broadcast as saying ‘Sorry’ to Massa, stewards confirmed that Article 39.1 of the international sporting code – the ban on team orders – and Article 151c – bringing the sport into disrepute – have both been broken.

Oh dear, we are in a world of trouble now. Even with lawyers it will be hard to dig out of this hole. :-s

[Katu]

And the Santander told Luca D that certain spaniard is the no.1 driver and should get no.1 treatment. You sign the songs of the one paying the bills, and now it's clear who decides the songs.

i think that certain spaniard has been all season way better than one certain brazilian. why to prefer the one who is clearly slower?

[arunkshrestha]

We got a 1-2. Felipe was slower and struggling, would love to of seen him win but.... Fernando is our best shot at a Championship so......

We had fantatsic weekend, please people dont let this blind you to that fact. Our car was made massive gains, so big respect and thankyou to all team back in Maranello. If we are running 1-2 next weekend, with Felipe up front again, he will win. The Team comes first, the Teams INTEREST's comes first.

Why are so you so sure Massa won't be asked to move behind Alonso again to maximise Alonso's point count?

[Tifoso]

Oh dear, we are in a world of trouble now. Even with lawyers it will be hard to dig out of this hole. :-s

1. Ferrari fined $100K

2. Ferrari summoned--and does not dispute fine

3. Story ended

;-)

[Katu]

Why are so you so sure Massa won't be asked to move behind Alonso again to maximise Alonso's point count?

because FIA will keep their eyes and ears on that, for sure!

[Tifoso]

because FIA will keep their eyes and ears on that, for sure!


Which is why they will change the way of ordering it to disguise it.

[arunkshrestha]

because FIA will keep their eyes and ears on that, for sure!

Well if the FIA doesn't have a problem with today, then surely they will have no case if Ferrari do the same next week. $100,000 is nothing for Ferrari as long as Alonso's points are maximised and he stays in the title hunt.

[Tifoso]

SPEED: You could say that this is Felipe Massa's real pace.

Comment after Alonso went 1st.

[Mollydog]

The fact I do not post is not a reflection on my reading this forum, and the fact I only registered last year is also no reflection on how long I’ve been read this forum, and as there’ no way of you knowing , I’ve been a Ferrari follower from 1997. Remember how good MS was for Ferrari? The moment he does the same for another team, on here apart from the few, you hear nothing but bad mouthing and what a cheat he is, sad that considering what he did for Ferrari

[FFFerrari]

i think that certain spaniard has been all season way better than one certain brazilian. why to prefer the one who is clearly slower?

I believe that that in FA's contract it's clearly stated that he gets the no.1 driver treatment the same way MS once had. But of course I can't prove it, it's just my gut feeling. Everything just seems to point that way (the direction of car construction, different drivers requesting different handling from the cars, what happened today). I don't mind having no.1/2 drivers, if it's done in public. It was just wonderful what happened in 2007/2008 when they allowed Kimi and Felipe to see who is the faster on each year and compete with each other.

[RED]

The thing is EVERYONE knows team order exists. It's just how it's executed, which Ferrari could probably have done just a teeny weeny bit more subtly today. :lou And I do believe we made the correct decision today. :thumb

[Greig]

Ferrari just need to go to the WMSC with a whole list of team orders since 2002 that have taken place and the FIA done nothing, they can include their own if they wish and plenty from McLaren

[Tifoso]

The thing is EVERYONE knows team order exists. It's just how it's executed, which Ferrari could probably have done just a teeny weeny bit more subtly today. :lou And I do believe we made the correct decision today. :thumb


Yup.

[Katu]

I believe that that in FA's contract it's clearly stated that he gets the no.1 driver treatment the same way MS once had. But of course I can't prove it, it's just my gut feeling. Everything just seems to point that way (the direction of car construction, different drivers requesting different handling from the cars, what happened today). I don't mind having no.1/2 drivers, if it's done in public. It was just wonderful what happened in 2007/2008 when they allowed Kimi and Felipe to see who is the faster on each year and compete with each other.
I'm sure FA asked harder tires too, so that FM would suffer more. it's the same foolish talk that before he went back to Renault he requested Piquet as a teammate because he knew Piquet would be slower.
and what happened in 2007 was winning with 1 lucky point, 2008 losing by 1 unlucky point. i bet both Felipe and Kimi would have wanted more teamorders to make these situautions easier

[hogo]

Shameful move by Ferrari but every other team is doing this so why the hell everyone is jumping on Ferraris throats like they are the only sinners out there!

[shostak]

Do you remember the moment in the race when Massa & Alonso were near of collision (thanks to Massa)? Marc Gené has not understand it.
By this situation what happened happened then.

[Greig]

Shameful move by Ferrari

Hold up, that sounds like anti-Ferrari, did you not tell us to support Ferrari you have to agree with Stefano every step of the way?

[Tech_Skill]

Isnt it nice to see the Mcheater fans and press crying because Alonso beat their idol this weekend, more of the same next week please.

[Hermann]

Isnt it nice to see the Mcheater fans and press crying because Alonso beat their idol this weekend, more of the same next week please.

And this is the actual problem for them.

[Tech_Skill]

And this is the actual problem for them.

Of course it is, when Lewis broke the rules, and got away with it, all of a sudden the rules didn't matter because it benefited Hamilton, also no crying when Mclaren used team orders to stop button passing hamilton again, because its not cheating if Mclaren gain points from it.

[Julie B]

Ferrari has ruled out appealing the $100,000 fine it got for imposing team orders in the German GP

[hogo]

Hold up, that sounds like anti-Ferrari, did you not tell us to support Ferrari you have to agree with Stefano every step of the way?

What? I've never said that:roll

[hogo]

Ferrari has ruled out appealing the $100,000 fine it got for imposing team orders in the German GP

and they say stewards aren't biased...

[straycat]

it is about the team just as when filipe somehow timed it perfect in the pit lane for kimi to become wdc. fia seems to be on a witchhunt. why not have team orders?

[FFFerrari]

it is about the team just as when filipe somehow timed it perfect in the pit lane for kimi to become wdc. fia seems to be on a witchhunt. why not have team orders?

I think the reason lies in Austria 2002 and what happened.

[xpman]

ok , time to move on next race hope we win there too well hope Alonso win and if he cant win due to tech problems the Massa wins but hope for another 1,2 finish and Massa Nows what his role is in team for rest of season to ride shotgun and get max points from race without hurting Alonso only coz hes got more chance of winng the WDC and both win the WCC.:ferrarifl:ferrarifl:ferrarifl:ferrarifl !!!
(on what happend today was correct for Ferrari is just they totaly useless indoing it in a Secret and Not so Blaten way as the rules as they stand says).

[bkircher]

Ok so its obvious this was an instance of team orders, but I seriously dont understand why Massa and Smedly handeled so poorly. There are so many cases where this could have been avoided... Traffic ahead, Massa overshoots a corner, misses a gear, anything except for what was done. It was so obvious. Granted I think the result would have been the same had this not happened, but still, if both drivers are vowing to win "A" championship they should both be team players. Massa cannot be mad at the team when he is 20 some points behind Alonso in the WDC, he just cant. If it were a 10 point gap or less, thenn its a different story. You cant penelize a driver thats CLEARLY out performing Massa. It would take a miracle for Massa to win the WDC at this point, practially all the top guys finishing out of the points or so for him to win and even get close to the front.

Points before race:
Alonso
103
Massa
70

If Massa had won
90 to 118, still look at the difference.

HOW can Massa be throwing a fit over that???

EDIT... Sorry I pressed the 7 key instead of the 9 key

[Nova]

We got a 1-2. Felipe was slower and struggling, would love to of seen him win but.... Fernando is our best shot at a Championship so......

We had fantatsic weekend, please people dont let this blind you to that fact. Our car was made massive gains, so big respect and thankyou to all team back in Maranello. If we are running 1-2 next weekend, with Felipe up front again, he will win. The Team comes first, the Teams INTEREST's comes first.

Correcto..Congrats to the TEAM and the drivers, and the engineers....Now I really like Felipe, but I did start to get worried when I saw him locking up while leading certain parts of the race...I also saw FA posting quicker laps at points of the race when Vettel was looming..we werent disappearing off into the sunset...I dont care which driver won, all I care about is that a Ferrari WON..we needed a victory and badly..especially after some of the disasters we've had recently.....I was surprised at the way Massa handled the situation..of course you are going to be upset if the team tells you that the other driver is faster...how the fia misconstrued that to be team orders and to fine Ferrari, especially when mac and RB do basically the same thing is questionable.....I have to agree w/some of the comments to the effect that we are on the fia's hit list, as it certainly appears that they are even watching Ferrari when they go to the bathroom...hope they dont do anything bad in there...it could mean more fines...

Congratulations to Ferrari..I hope people will see this win as joyous and not degrade any of the drivers or the team...WE WON!!!!

[JRX164]

First of all, I'm pro team-orders. F1 is a team sport. Besides that, if an additional penalty is given to Ferrari, I am definitely through with watching formula 1. By the way, which race was it again that Hamilton was being told that Button would not overtake him?

[Stormsearcher]

Oh dear, we are in a world of trouble now. Even with lawyers it will be hard to dig out of this hole. :-s

i dont think so. They actually havent said anything that indicates at team orders. Its how you perceive it in the end and that can be subjective.
Since we know what happens and how things are done, we read these lines in a certain way.. but it cannot be the absolute truth because at no point has any ferrari team member said anything about letting the other driver pass.

[Tech_Skill]

You cant penelize a driver thats CLEARLY out performing Massa. It would take a miracle for Massa to win the WDC at this point, practially all the top guys finishing out of the points or so for him to win and even get close to the front.

Points before race:
Alonso
103
Massa
70

HOW can Massa be throwing a fit over that???

If Massa had won
70 to 118, still look at the difference.

Exactly, anyhow we let massa win that race, we would be a LAUGHING STOCK down the pit lane.

I can imagine Ron Dennis laughing at the TV saying "Hahahaha, 1st we start taking points of them, now their are taking points away from their own championship contender!"

Totally the correct decision, Massa got his ass handed to him by Alonso so many times this year and so it was obvious this had to happen, every single team boss out there would have made the same decision we did.

The reality is this, Massa is not world championship material, not against Hamilton and Vettel in them other cars, if want the WDC this year, we back alonso or die, next year if massa is the man, we back massa and alonso shuts up and plays number 2 or he goes and drives for another team.

[xpman]

ROB SMEDLEY think will get verbal or written warning coz realy his remarks fueled this to a near inferno .
Am not sure what Massa problem was if he not like it he be a man and do a RENE ARNOUX !!! (when he drove for Renault and team mate was Prost).
But Massa chose to be a Team Player so .

[steve1971]

bkircher,

I like your post and I couldnt have said it better.


:thumb

[arunkshrestha]

Ok so its obvious this was an instance of team orders, but I seriously dont understand why Massa and Smedly handeled so poorly. There are so many cases where this could have been avoided... Traffic ahead, Massa overshoots a corner, misses a gear, anything except for what was done. It was so obvious. Granted I think the result would have been the same had this not happened, but still, if both drivers are vowing to win "A" championship they should both be team players. Massa cannot be mad at the team when he is 20 some points behind Alonso in the WDC, he just cant. If it were a 10 point gap or less, thenn its a different story. You cant penelize a driver thats CLEARLY out performing Massa. It would take a miracle for Massa to win the WDC at this point, practially all the top guys finishing out of the points or so for him to win and even get close to the front.

Points before race:
Alonso
103
Massa
70

HOW can Massa be throwing a fit over that???

If Massa had won
70 to 118, still look at the difference.

Point differences are exaggerated by this years points system. Massa just needs a couple more good races to be level with Alonso, but from the looks of it, Ferrari won't allow that.

[xpman]

MR SANTANDER MR SANTANDER MR SANTANDER not too happy if Massa won me thinks

[Anni]

Ok so its obvious this was an instance of team orders, but I seriously dont understand why Massa and Smedly handeled so poorly. There are so many cases where this could have been avoided... Traffic ahead, Massa overshoots a corner, misses a gear, anything except for what was done. It was so obvious. Granted I think the result would have been the same had this not happened, but still, if both drivers are vowing to win "A" championship they should both be team players. Massa cannot be mad at the team when he is 20 some points behind Alonso in the WDC, he just cant. If it were a 10 point gap or less, thenn its a different story. You cant penelize a driver thats CLEARLY out performing Massa. It would take a miracle for Massa to win the WDC at this point, practially all the top guys finishing out of the points or so for him to win and even get close to the front.

Points before race:
Alonso
103
Massa
70

HOW can Massa be throwing a fit over that???

If Massa had won
70 to 118, still look at the difference.



It´s really a miracle why Massa is angry and upset just because they stole this victory from him which he would have needed so badly! He should be a nice guy and dance around and be happy!:roll
In wich world do you live???

[Stormsearcher]

Point differences are exaggerated by this years points system. Massa just needs a couple more good races to be level with Alonso, but from the looks of it, Ferrari won't allow that.

Like how they didnt allow him to score points earlier in the season? Comeon... Felipe is not where he should be, if he was consistently challenging alonso then it would be a questionable call. He has really been off the pace all season. Its not about the team not "allowing" him to win. Point is, realistically, he has missed the bus for this years championship. Even Nando hangs in there by a thread and the team has to do what would be the logical choice. To pick the guy with the chance to be able to do it.
Besides, overtaking between team members is a tricky affair. Its all nice to say, let them race... but it can go bust like how RBs did it a few races back. We have to get as many points as possible considering the first half of our season was pretty much in shambles. Nando WOULD have tried to win the race anyways, he was faster than felipe and Massa is not known to be able to defend in a safe manner. The team in my opinion did this as it could have meant no points at all.
It was a good call, but it should have been handled better.

[aroutis]

Since we're talking team orders, let me tell you what I think about it.

I think this sport has always been about team orders and no matter what people may tell you IT WILL ALWAYS BE about team orders. Simply put, too much money is thrown over the table for no team orders to be issued.

Letting that simple thing aside, and thinking Ferrari, if you ask me, every driver that comes to Ferrari is aware of the simple fact that TEAM COMES FIRST.
That simple fact comes with the fact that TEAM ORDERS CAN / COULD/ WILL be issued if needed. And that means that if the team manager asks for that, they should act accordingly.

I am sure that no driver likes obeying to team orders, this sport is severely antagonistic and the first person you race against is your team mate. However the team pays the bills
and you work FOR THE TEAM. That goes for every driver, not just Massa, but Nando also. And another thing, since we talk bout today, I feel that Rob Smedley should've handled
himself a bit better around the team radio. "magnanimous" I am sure that Felippe is, but that is something he should praise him with OFF the air, not when everyone is listening.

Then again , that's me.

[aroutis]

Point differences are exaggerated by this years points system. Massa just needs a couple more good races to be level with Alonso, but from the looks of it, Ferrari won't allow that.

What Ferrari DOES NOT need right now is two drivers RACING EACH OTHER, risking accidents when FERRARI needs MAX points.

Yeah, they won't allow that and GOOD for them.

[Stormsearcher]

Since we're talking team orders, let me tell you what I think about it.

I think this sport has always been about team orders and no matter what people may tell you IT WILL ALWAYS BE about team orders. Simply put, too much money is thrown over the table for no team orders to be issued.

Letting that simple thing aside, and thinking Ferrari, if you ask me, every driver that comes to Ferrari is aware of the simple fact that TEAM COMES FIRST.
That simple fact comes with the fact that TEAM ORDERS CAN / COULD/ WILL be issued if needed. And that means that if the team manager asks for that, they should act accordingly.

I am sure that no driver likes obeying to team orders, this sport is severely antagonistic and the first person you race against is your team mate. However the team pays the bills
and you work FOR THE TEAM. That goes for every driver, not just Massa, but Nando also. And another thing, since we talk bout today, I feel that Rob Smedley should've handled
himself a bit better around the team radio. "magnanimous" I am sure that Felippe is, but that is something he should praise him with OFF the air, not when everyone is listening.

Then again , that's me.

I dunno, maybe i am being too suspicious, but what RS did was IMO not an innocent act. I am sure he was as miffed as felipe about being asked to let Nando pass.. and he made sure people knew how it is. Just my thoughts, cause i cant imagine someone with so much experience in racing making such an OBVIOUS mistake.

[JRX164]

Something else I don't understand is why other teams/ drivers get a reprimand without penalty and then the rules are changed. And when it concerns Ferrari, the rules are changed after Ferrari is penalised. I simply don't get the logic of it. In this case, I also wonder if Ferrari is being made an example in the change to make team radio public.

[Alessandra]

Great race for Ferrari and both its drivers. Well done all!!

And thanks to David Coulthard (BBC TV) for mentioning that there are team orders in all teams ("everybody does it") and everyone knows that so what's the fuss about? (Ask Fisi- I remember a Renault radio message a few years ago along the lines of "Fernando is behind you and faster". Fisi thought, moved over and that was the end of it. No hysterics, no cries of 'foul', just common sense).

Thanks to Martin Brundle for pointing out to an ever- so- slightly holier than thou Christian Horner that manipulating the end order was precisely what his team was trying to do in lining up Vettel to overtake Webber, shortly before they crashed into each other a couple of races ago ( which was presumably what Ferrari was trying to avoid happening - and managed to achieve. Well done).

If you don't want drama, debate and utter commitment, don't hire Fernando Alonso.:-D

Excellent race - more of them please.:ferrarifl

[Greig]

So we are not appealing the fine, race result stands, so what will the WMSC do to us if they find us guilty? another fine and a warning to behave for 2 years like McLaren etc?

[bkircher]

It´s really a miracle why Massa is angry and upset just because they stole this victory from him which he would have needed so badly! He should be a nice guy and dance around and be happy!
In wich world do you live???

Comon, lets be real here. Were human of course were gonna be bummed about it, but if you say you are a part of TEAM Ferrari and you only want to win championships, your TEAMMATE is in a better spot that you. He has to realize that. Its not Alonsos fault that he is an overall better driver than Massa.

[zeus2]

Ok so its obvious this was an instance of team orders, but I seriously dont understand why Massa and Smedly handeled so poorly. There are so many cases where this could have been avoided... Traffic ahead, Massa overshoots a corner, misses a gear, anything except for what was done. It was so obvious. Granted I think the result would have been the same had this not happened, but still, if both drivers are vowing to win "A" championship they should both be team players. Massa cannot be mad at the team when he is 20 some points behind Alonso in the WDC, he just cant. If it were a 10 point gap or less, thenn its a different story. You cant penelize a driver thats CLEARLY out performing Massa. It would take a miracle for Massa to win the WDC at this point, practially all the top guys finishing out of the points or so for him to win and even get close to the front.

Points before race:
Alonso
103
Massa
70

If Massa had won
90 to 118, still look at the difference.

HOW can Massa be throwing a fit over that???

EDIT... Sorry I pressed the 7 key instead of the 9 key


Not agreeing or disagreeing with what you said but I'm not getting how you calculated those numbers. I think the points before the race was
Alonso = 98
Massa = 67

If massa won and Alonso came second
Massa = 67+25=92
Alonso = 98+18=116

Under the new system, the race winner takes 25 points, with 18 and 15 being awarded for second and third places respectively. The next seven finishers will score 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 and 1 point respectively.

[Katu]

So we are not appealing the fine, race result stands, so what will the WMSC do to us if they find us guilty? another fine and a warning to behave for 2 years like McLaren etc?

i don't think there is much they can do. for race fixing the gave out some bans which are now overturned. but results stayed the same.

[Nova]

What this shows me is that Ferrari is going to have to pay the fia for every race we win this year......dont know what we did to the fia, but they do appear to have it in for the REDS....
You never really hear anything from the fia about other teams doing this, they dont get fined..I mean, some teams even use cranes to get their cars out of trouble...nary a word from the fia...

Whats going on here? Does the fia have it in for Ferrari? Is it Todt??? AND can the fia take away our points from today? If the fia does indeed have it in for Ferrari, which looks to be the case, we may lose this victory..
Something is starting to smell fishy here.....

[Italian Spirit]

What this shows me is that Ferrari is going to have to pay the fia for every race we win this year......dont know what we did to the fia, but they do appear to have it in for the REDS....
You never really hear anything from the fia about other teams doing this, they dont get fined..I mean, some teams even use cranes to get their cars out of trouble...nary a word from the fia...

Whats going on here? Does the fia have it in for Ferrari? Is it Todt??? AND can the fia take away our points from today? If the fia does indeed have it in for Ferrari, which looks to be the case, we may lose this victory..
Something is starting to smell fishy here.....

Yes.

[996 GT1 Lover]

So we are not appealing the fine, race result stands, so what will the WMSC do to us if they find us guilty? another fine and a warning to behave for 2 years like McLaren etc?

This is what I'm curious about. They can't really take away any WCC or WDC points from us, can they? Although everyone knows what happened, there's no actual proof that Ferrari told Massa to let Alonso by.

[Nova]

No proof..only ASSUMPTIONS.....funny, the fia are all mindreaders...phycics?? claravoyant??? I'll get one of these right...

[Tommy_F]

This is what I'm curious about. They can't really take away any WCC or WDC points from us, can they? Although everyone knows what happened, there's no actual proof that Ferrari told Massa to let Alonso by.

They can (meaning they have the authority, don't know what to say about proof), they did so with macca:
http://www.f1technical.net/news/7062


“The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructor points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship and the team can score no points for the remainder of the season.*

[JRX164]

I thought Smedley was using code-speak for 'the eagle has landed'. But perhaps they will stop using coded language next time. Then he can just say 'the fox is in the hole' when he means to inform Massa that the fox is in the hole. Won't be the same though.

[tpe]

The thing is EVERYONE knows team order exists. It's just how it's executed, which Ferrari could probably have done just a teeny weeny bit more subtly today. :lou And I do believe we made the correct decision today. :thumb

Excactly. That's why Ferrari must meet the WMSC. Smedley did a really lousy job today. I mean, when I heard the "Understand", it was clear to me that FIA would summon them. And when I saw what FM did, I was 10000% sure that we were in trouble.
I strongly believe that FIA will remove all points from Ferrari.

RBR and McLaren have much better way to communicate team orders. For example, "save fuel" and when drivers fail to "understand" the situation, they have other options to do.

For me, this is an example of BAD management. SD was a HR executive. Someone would expect to have a better way to handle the situation. And the way he answered to EJ for BBC, was simply stupid. When you have the whole press against you, either you shut up, or you present solid facts. For example, a print out of the 3 gear changes that FM lost.

[Tech_Skill]

Excactly. That's why Ferrari must meet the WMSC. Smedley did a really lousy job today. I mean, when I heard the "Understand", it was clear to me that FIA would summon them. And when I saw what FM did, I was 10000% sure that we were in trouble.
I strongly believe that FIA will remove all points from Ferrari.

RBR and McLaren have much better way to communicate team orders. For example, "save fuel" and when drivers fail to "understand" the situation, they have other options to do.

For me, this is an example of BAD management. SD was a HR executive. Someone would expect to have a better way to handle the situation. And the way he answered to EJ for BBC, was simply stupid. When you have the whole press against you, either you shut up, or you present solid facts. For example, a print out of the 3 gear changes that FM lost.

Very true, straight away when Smedley said that , i said in the race thread, FIA investigation is coming.

The only thing is, they CANNOT PROVE teams orders were given, no order was given, Massa was officially told alonso was faster.

Then again the FIA are not logical so you never know what they might do.

[zeus2]

Vettel on being asked about team order. sums it up quite nicely in my opinion.

Q: (Miran Alisic - Korpmedia) I have a question for Sebastian. I think you had some not similar but close situations with Mark as well. Do you feel proud that what has happened at Ferrari today hasn't happened in your team?
SV: Don't you have another question maybe? Yeah, maybe they should have crashed. I don't know, I haven't seen the incident. I was too far back. I always saw them going into the hairpin when I was coming out of turn five, so I don't know what you're all talking about. I can guess but I don't know. For sure my advice would not be it's better to crash because also then you get a lot of questions that you have to answer so... Yeah, for me I was focusing on my own race and trying to do my thing, trying to stay close enough, trying to get closer, trying to put them under pressure. It didn't work, so I'm not pleased with that. No matter who you race, it's always difficult in Formula One to pass people and sometimes you have to take a lot of risk. When you don't have to race your team-mate, you're racing for the team, both of you, both drivers and on the other hand everyone looks for his own advantage. We had a couple of situations this year in our team, so it's quite a comedy that we are not in focus at this stage but life changes quickly, so… It's never wise to say anything that you might regret. Maybe in a week's time. I'm happy where we are now, as a team. Again, I can only repeat that from the outside there was more of a fuss made than there was inside.I can assure you that Mark and myself are always looking to do our best but on top of that, I think we understood many times this year that the team is the main priority and we are racing for the team, in the end. We don't get our cheque from you guys, we get it from the team. I think that's something we always have to respect.

[Liscia]

So add $100K to what it cost Ferrari to win the German GP. It's just a small unforeseen 'investment' needed towards
attaining valuable championship prizes that can still be acquired before season-end. The team knows, the drivers understand,
and this fan only has a problem with the lack of finesse that caused the extra cost and embarassment.

[epiclyaddicted]

So we are not appealing the fine, race result stands, so what will the WMSC do to us if they find us guilty? another fine and a warning to behave for 2 years like McLaren etc?

Well yeah, hopefully, at a push, we get nothing more than a suspended sentence (a la McLaren). Because the WMSC can't actually prove any team order here according to the wording of the law, since there were no actual instructions given by Ferrari. And Massa even went on the record saying that it was his decision to let Alonso through.

[shostak]

So we are not appealing the fine, race result stands, so what will the WMSC do to us if they find us guilty? another fine and a warning to behave for 2 years like McLaren etc?

I think Ferrari was judged and got a penalty. You cant be judged two times for the same subject, that's illegal. A second trial by WMSC is illegal in my opinion.

[Greig]

I think Ferrari was judged and got a penalty. You cant be judged two times for the same subject, that's illegal. A second trial by WMSC is illegal in my opinion.

No the stewards can refer anything to the WMSC, they don't have the authority to deal with everything :-)


Ferrari have also been found guilty of breaching the sporting code, which states that "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition, or to the interests of motorsport generally" can be punished.


The fine is the maximum the stewards are allowed to impose.

[ferrari4life]

what a load of crap from the stewards.. they fall over themselves to make sure that other teams/drivers get these so called reprimands from breaking rules etc. but they feel so threatened by a fast Ferrari that god forbid they give us the opportunity to get away with something.
Clear question.. what was the proof they found that there was team orders? just a guess or they listening to the eddie jordan town crier?

[bkircher]

Not agreeing or disagreeing with what you said but I'm not getting how you calculated those numbers. I think the points before the race was
Alonso = 98
Massa = 67

If massa won and Alonso came second
Massa = 67+25=92
Alonso = 98+18=116

Under the new system, the race winner takes 25 points, with 18 and 15 being awarded for second and third places respectively. The next seven finishers will score 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 and 1 point respectively.
Ya sorry I was going to post a reply and say I think my numbers are wrong, but it still gets the general point across. None the less its still just a bout a 20 point spread either way.

[mandzipop]

I understand why Ferrari did what they did. If Massa had won this race, he would have been able to score a maximum of 292 points by winning the rest of the races this year. That still would not have been enough to guarantee he'd win the WDC. Hamilton would still have been in a postion to score 301 points in total.

Did they do the right thing? Yes. Did they handle it correctly. No.

[straycat]

great effort for the entire team, sad that this melodrama unfolded. hope that it does not affect the rest of the season. the webbo vet mess was worse and they seem to have sort of worked through it.

[Ferrari_gal]

Let Massa pay the fine! Thank you Massa for what you have done! Brilliant!

Why must Massa pay the fine, let crybaby pay it....Where FA is , there is always dispute and strife

[Greig]

Why must Massa pay the fine, let crybaby pay it....Where FA is , there is always dispute and strife

It had nothing to do with Alonso, so how about you stop crying about him, he did not make the call

[mad_ani]

So we are not appealing the fine, race result stands, so what will the WMSC do to us if they find us guilty? another fine and a warning to behave for 2 years like McLaren etc?

Drivers usually get let off..teams face a fine and possibly be stripped of the WCC points for the race...and a reprimand...


Lets see how Jean Todt handles this one...

The team and usually the 2 drivers may be present at WMSC...with telemetry of the pass being presented by the race stewards

__________________________________________________ _________________

Even if the team radio technically did not ask Massa to let Alonso thru...the telemetry will tell if Massa really had a problem in that corner or if he intentionally slowed down...

[mad_ani]

Why must Massa pay the fine, let crybaby pay it....Where FA is , there is always dispute and strife

Thats why he brought in $antander ;-)

[Greig]

Thats why he brought in $antander ;-)

that you reverting to trolling again :-)

[mad_ani]

that you reverting to trolling again :-)

Troll ??That was a bit of humour mate..

Alonso boosts Santander media value

F1 Grand Prix, GP Bahrain, Bahrain International Circuit
The victory for Fernando Alonso certainly did not please only the fans of the Scuderia Ferrari. One major stakeholder happy with the new success is Banco Santander, the Spanish bank that is now one of the main sponsors for the Italian team.
The victory of Fernando Alonso yesterday at the first Grand Prix of the season has to satisfy, in addition to fans, the sponsor Banco Santander. After that first race, the Spanish bank makes a great photo op by El Pais.

A consultant of the Iberian bank spoke to El Pais about the media value of the deal between Ferrari and Santander. He estimates that the period between the introduction of the Ferrari F10 and Fernando Alonso's victory at Bahrain is worth 25 million euros.

While this figure might look staggering, Santander is reported to invest approximately 50 million euros per year into the Scuderia, while it is also still involved with McLaren.



well $25m is still a huge amount in such a short time....:-)...enought pay up for the $100,000 fine...

[Greig]

Trolling yes, what does Santander have to do with this thread?

[mad_ani]

Ferrari not appealing stewards' team order verdict
Racing series F1
Date 2010-07-25
By Motorsport.com/GMM


Share |

Ferrari is not appealing its $100,000 penalty for imposing illegal team orders in the German Grand Prix.

The stewards, also directing the matter to the World Motor Sport Council, found the Italian team guilty of both team orders and disrepute.

The team denies the charge, arguing that Felipe Massa made the decision to let Fernando Alonso pass him at Hockenheim after struggling on the hard tyres and receiving advice from his race engineer that Alonso was faster.

"In the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it (the decision), confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly," said team boss Stefano Domenicali.

With just three days now until the F1 circus re-congregates in Hungary, the other story to emerge is that Massa might now be considered Alonso's number two.

When asked specifically about playing a longer-term subordinate role to the Spaniard, Brazilian Massa said on Sunday: "Well, I cannot say that I'm there fighting for first position in the championship."

He also denied that his decision to give way to Alonso will damage his reputation.

"For sure not, for sure not," said Massa, the 2008 championship runner-up.

"I'm very professional and I've shown in my career how professional I am. You (reporters) are professional as well, you work for a company.

"I believe you are doing what you have to do, so I'm professional and today I showed how professional I am. That's it," he insisted.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

If Massa had indeed made that judgement by himself...why was he not happy about finishing second...Not his chirpy self???His first podium since Australia (??)something to celebrate for the team???

[Tech_Skill]

If Massa had indeed made that judgement by himself...why was he not happy about finishing second...Not his crirpy self???His first podium since Australia (??)something to celebrate for the team???

I thought the same thing, but after hearing Stefano talk to the press its all 100% clear to me, there were no team order whatsoever, smedley just informed massa that alonso was catching him, for some reason massa decided he better let alonso through for the championship and massa felt very happy to do the job, in no way was the decision forced on him, as far as im concerned this is the end of the matter, no need for any further investigation. :lol

[mad_ani]

I thought the same thing, but after hearing Stefano talk to the press its all 100% clear to me, there were no team order whatsoever, smedley just informed massa that alonso was catching him, for some reason massa decided he better let alonso through for the championship and massa felt very happy to do the job, in no way was the decision forced on him, as far as im concerned this is the end of the matter, no need for any further investigation. :lol

Why does Massa have to be told who the faster of the 2 cars is??I do know that drivers like Vettel ask the team radio...this was a case where Rob told him, and ask him if he understood the message???
Why??because Massa's english is so bad, he didnt know what magnanimous meant???

Alonso was faster than Massa in Australia...why was he not told the same then???

[Greig]

Why does Massa have to be told who the faster of the 2 cars is??I do know that drivers like Vettel ask the team radio...this was a case where Rob told him, and ask him if he understood the message???
Why??because Massa's english is so bad, he didnt know what magnanimous meant???

Alonso was faster than Massa in Australia...why was he not told the same then???

Are you a bit slow? we all know what it was, it was a order to move, no need for your riddles

[Tech_Skill]

Why does Massa have to be told who the faster of the 2 cars is??I do know that drivers like Vettel ask the team radio...this was a case where Rob told him, and ask him if he understood the message???
Why??because Massa's english is so bad, he didnt know what magnanimous meant???

Alonso was faster than Massa in Australia...why was he not told the same then???

Stefano says that he wanted Massa to understand alonso was faster so that no racing incidents took place that would compromise Ferrari's championship, like the kind that happened to red bull.

There is no such thing as team orders in F1 anymore, they dont exist, all the teams play by the rules, i was watching Christian Horner today and he said he would never give one driver an advantage in the championship over another driver and he is a such an honest man, I believe him 100% when he says that. Mclaren would never do such a thing either as they are a team that prides themselves on honesty and integrity as proven by the paragon of virtue that is Dennis and Whitmarsh.

[996 GT1 Lover]

They can (meaning they have the authority, don't know what to say about proof), they did so with macca:
http://www.f1technical.net/news/7062

That I know, but until/if proof arises, can they really do anything? The only reason that McLaren were stripped of their points was because they lied and there was evidence showing that they were lying.

[Aussie]

They were fined a million for Austria 2002 when there were no rules, so I doubt they will appeal that.

100k for ferrari is nothing :) why will u appeal

[raylinds]

I too, had mixed feeings about race, but I understand why Ferrari did what they did:
1. Alonso was cearly faster at that point and there coud have been an accident if he tried to overtake Fipe.

2. If Massa slowed down Alonso, Vettel could have caught up to both of them.

3. Alonso is way ahead of Massa in points.

It made perfect sense from a team point of view, and that's what I care about. Both Smedley and Massa handled it poorly. Massa made it obvious by the way he let Alonso by, and Smedley was just stupid on the radio.

Team orders are a fact of life in F1 and shoud not be against the rules.

BTW, I would have been happy to see Felipe win- I ony favor the driver that delivers the best results for the team. Forza Ferrari!

[aroutis]

That I know, but until/if proof arises, can they really do anything? The only reason that McLaren were stripped of their points was because they lied and there was evidence showing that they were lying.

It's more than that. The case was different, it was about stealing the specifications of another team, claiming they did not, and being the first time that this ever happen before.

Come to think about it, what happened to them was really light, they should've had at least 2 years of exclusion of any racing sport that FIA oversees.

We're -on the other hand- accused that we -pretty much- made a mockery of the rules and we used team orders to form the result as we saw fit.
They need to actually prove this (which I don't think it's going to be that easy), plus all Ferrari should do is to make a case that displays that this is FAR from the first time AFTER that rules were amended in order that team orders were banned, and also present some interviews of team members of other teams that pretty much say that Ferrari have done nothing more, and ask that should they be penalized they -in turn- should be brought in WMSC in turn for bringing the sport in disrepute.

That should pretty much do it.

[aroutis]

Regarding Smedley and Massa, I really don't think I'd like to be in their shoes when Luca D. starts asking for questions. Then again, I think that a certain team manager has responsibilies about it. How tight -exactly- is the ship he's running?... hm...

[Lesky]

"It's a shame, not for us because this is racing, but for all the fans who came here to watch a manipulated race," he told Spanish television after the race.

- Alonso

:lou

[flam147]

- Alonso

:lou
race was manipulated by stewards :lou
try to race and actully brake for corner not just cut corner and be forced off track to get penulty:lou
without the previous race rigging by stewards this would not have needed to happen as Alonso should be closer to hamster:lou

[Angelus]

I want to say me couple words:
Ferrari totally screwed this fcking gp up. total failure :-(
Massa really deserved this win because he was the best! Hopefully FIA resets the whole gp points from alonso and the team from this gp. Total Failure was this. Jesus. I don't understand.
Possibly whole wcc points
I'm deeply annoyed how they don't respect drivers. :-(
Do we really want this how Ferrari disrespects drivers :-(

And Alonso celebrating how he won... jesus...

edit: Forgive me maybe I've given this comment in passion of true driving

[ICEMAN_89]

In 2007, Felipe let Kimi pass so that he can win the championship. In 2008 Kimi returned a favor by letting massa pass as well, so I don't see what the problem is.

That was 2 very different situations, both driver back then knew what had to be done, but this time the team clearly told Massa to give his position to Alonso, and that is illegal. As far as i am concerned Ferrari deserves this penalty. If you break the rules you will get burned and that's what happened today

[Angelus]

Felipe should have driven to Alonso like Webber did and it would have been much more okay then. For crying out loud :(
It would have showed to the team to stfu :(

[Bobnkill]

The way I see it, both driver was let free to race each other since race 1. Alonso with a significant margin manage to put himself in contention for the driver's championship over massa who failed to do so. Now entering the second half of the season, ferrari has a (small?) chance to win at the very least the driver's championship what should they do? Personnally they did the right thing. We don't have (at least this year) the luxury to let our drivers steal each other points with the risk of crashing the other that redbull had in turkey.

I would even push as far as to suggest that massa is a cry baby. He was desperate to show to everybody that he deserve the win so he put the whole team into shame (and possibly penalise) by letting alonso pass in a clear way. He could have handle the situation in a more subtle way. He's the one who failed to put himself in contention for the driver's championship. If he had been close to alonso (in the driver's championship and also in speed) during the season the same way webber is to vettel and button is to hamilton, he could have kept is win today. I doubt ferrari would have ask for him to pull over with a 5-10 points difference with alonso.

[mad_ani]

The way I see it, both driver was let free to race each other since race 1. Alonso with a significant margin manage to put himself in contention for the driver's championship over massa who failed to do so. Now entering the second half of the season, ferrari has a (small?) chance to win at the very least the driver's championship what should they do? Personnally they did the right thing. We don't have (at least this year) the luxury to let our drivers steal each other points with the risk of crashing the other that redbull had in turkey.

I would even push as far as to suggest that massa is a cry baby. He was desperate to show to everybody that he deserve the win so he put the whole team into shame (and possibly penalise) by letting alonso pass in a clear way. He could have handle the situation in a more subtle way. He's the one who failed to put himself in contention for the driver's championship. If he had been close to alonso (in the driver's championship and also in speed) during the season the same way webber is to vettel and button is to hamilton, he could have kept is win today. I doubt ferrari would have ask for him to pull over with a 5-10 points difference with alonso.


IF Ferrari had been clever, then they would have done a bad pitstop for Massa etc. Instead made Massa and Rob Smedley the sole guys to blame for this one...

Alonso who is a double world champion could have easily overtaken Massa...so is it implied that Alonso cannot win a race by himself???

[ferrari4life]

How hard is it to build a coded message... what did we not think about this before the race?
all you have to say is Massa...Alonso is faster than you and will catch and attempt to pass. please make sure that there are no incedents as a 1-2 victory is very important to the team...please drive safetly and cleanly

[ferrari4life]

IF Ferrari had been clever, then they would have done a bad pitstop for Massa etc. Instead made Massa and Rob Smedley the sole guys to blame for this one...

Alonso who is a double world champion could have easily overtaken Massa...so is it implied that Alonso cannot win a race by himself???

nothing is implied...would u rather we pull a redbull ?better to be safe than sorry

[Bobnkill]

The way I see it, both driver was let free to race each other since race 1. Alonso with a significant margin manage to put himself in contention for the driver's championship over massa who failed to do so. Now entering the second half of the season, ferrari has a (small?) chance to win at the very least the driver's championship what should they do? Personnally they did the right thing. We don't have (at least this year) the luxury to let our drivers steal each other points with the risk of crashing the other that redbull had in turkey.

I would even push as far as to suggest that massa is a cry baby. He was desperate to show to everybody that he deserve the win so he put the whole team into shame (and possibly penalise) by letting alonso pass in a clear way. He could have handle the situation in a more subtle way. He's the one who failed to put himself in contention for the driver's championship. If he had been close to alonso (in the driver's championship and also in speed) during the season the same way webber is to vettel and button is to hamilton, he could have kept is win today. I doubt ferrari would have ask for him to pull over with a 5-10 points difference with alonso.



IF Ferrari had been clever, then they would have done a bad pitstop for Massa etc. Instead made Massa and Rob Smedley the sole guys to blame for this one...

The solution that you propose (fake pitstop) would have put massa way back in the standing eliminating the 1-2 finish and also making all our compititor score more points in both championship so I disagre that it was a realistic alternative for ferrari.


Alonso who is a double world champion could have easily overtaken Massa...so is it implied that Alonso cannot win a race by himself???

I'm not disputing the fact that massa was quick today (equal to alonso) and would have deserve to win or maybe Alonso could have won if they would have fought all the way to the end or maybe it would have ended the same way it did for redbull in turkey so to play it safe in the precarious situation that we are in both championship is the way to go. What I'm saying is that Alonso alone put himself in contention for the driver's championship and Massa failed to keep a close gap between him and is team mate like the redbull and mclaren driver did that would have prevented him of having to give up a win for Alonso.

[mad_ani]

nothing is implied...would u rather we pull a redbull ?better to be safe than sorry

I am trying to say that Alonso is skilled enough to make a clean move on Massa with the speed he had...and he didnt need Massa to slow down to let him by.

[mad_ani]

The solution that you propose (fake pitstop) would have put massa way back in the standing eliminating the 1-2 finish and also making all our compititor score more points in both championship so I disagre that it was a realistic alternative for ferrari.



I'm not disputing the fact that massa was quick today (equal to alonso) and could have won or maybe Alonso could have won if they would have fought all the way to the end or maybe it would have ended the same way it did for redbull in turkey so play it safe in the precarious situation that we are in both championship is the way to go. What I'm saying is that Alonso alone put himself in contention for the driver's championship and Massa failed to keep a close gap between him and is team mate like the redbull and mclaren driver did that would have prevented him of having to give up a win for Alonso.

Massa was quicker on super soft compound...Alonso went to pits early and had better grip than Massa who had seemed to struggle a bit....He did match Alonso on pace. for the rest of the race...Imagine all the people watching the race on track and on tv's...they came to see a fair race...not a manipulated one...

But this move was not required until later in the season....It did make Rob Smedley be the bad guy who made the entire thing staged..

[Brakefade]

Why are the people making a fuss about this not making a fuss about all the champions in history who became champions thanks to team orders. Maybe we should research the history books and start taking away championship from greats like Fangio.

This was not a manipulated race. This was Ferrari being dominant and having the luxury of deciding which of their drivers took the victory. Rule book be dammed, that thing is a joke anyways. Ferrari earned this right feverishly developing their car and surpassing the Mclarens and RBs. This is just one more way to adhere to the letter, but not the spirit of the rules. Like the DDD last year. If the drivers don't like, then quit. And that goes for Alonso as well, had the roles been reversed. No driver is bigger than the team, and no driver's ego should and will not compromise the team's results. If Enzo were still alive he would've fired all of the staff had this decision not taken place.

Forza Ferrari and Forza Alonso for the WDC.

[Nova]

People are "implying" what Smedley said as team orders...he n Massa are close..he couldve meant when he said FA is faster than you, sorry...that he was sorry mabey he didnt prepare Felipe enough or a number of other things..sorry about the tires, or his race strategy....why does it have to be implyed as team orders....??

All of this Ferrari witch hunting is getting old....these clowns are taking the fun out of F1...clowns ie: the stewards, fia...AND, isnt Todt's son Massa's manager/agent whatever?

[mad_ani]

People are "implying" what Smedley said as team orders...he n Massa are close..he couldve meant when he said FA is faster than you, sorry...that he was sorry mabey he didnt prepare Felipe enough or a number of other things..sorry about the tires, or his race strategy....why does it have to be implyed as team orders....??

All of this Ferrari witch hunting is getting old....these clowns are taking the fun out of F1...clowns ie: the stewards, fia...AND, isnt Todt's son Massa's manager/agent whatever?


so its strange to see Massa slow down with a reason???and why did he not look so happy on the podium and PC??

[killer]

Massa was quicker on super soft compound...Alonso went to pits early and had better grip than Massa who had seemed to struggle a bit....He did match Alonso on pace. for the rest of the race...Imagine all the people watching the race on track and on tv's...they came to see a fair race...not a manipulated one...

But this move was not required until later in the season....It did make Rob Smedley be the bad guy who made the entire thing staged..

With respect: you are always going to nitpick and you will never get it because you have an agenda, mate. It's gotten to the point where I honestly think you just hang around waiting for Alonso to a make a mistake, go on about it on here for a bit, then try to hide behind a "balanced view" facade or whatever. There are times when one can very well re-think an opinion one may have, and eventually realize it may not be worth posting as 1) your point may already have been addressed, or 2) it may lead to a pointless discussion, i.e., one where being able to wind other people up and point out their mistakes is more important than arriving at a sensible conclusion.

Just calling it like I see it.

[tpe]

What this shows me is that Ferrari is going to have to pay the fia for every race we win this year......dont know what we did to the fia, but they do appear to have it in for the REDS....
You never really hear anything from the fia about other teams doing this, they dont get fined..I mean, some teams even use cranes to get their cars out of trouble...nary a word from the fia...

Whats going on here? Does the fia have it in for Ferrari? Is it Todt??? AND can the fia take away our points from today? If the fia does indeed have it in for Ferrari, which looks to be the case, we may lose this victory..
Something is starting to smell fishy here.....

As I said before, a certain Frenchman seems to have an alergy to red... But this time, the problem is not FIA. It's Ferrari. RS did a really lousy job and FM did it worse. It's time to learn from other teams in the way they handle the situation. hey could tell FM for example, that he needs to change to program 3 of 5, or 9 or whaterver, and that would be the message... Tell him that he needs to save fuel for a couple of laps. Tell him that his engine has a small problem and he has to slowdown for 3-4 laps in order to invesigate it. Tell him anything EXCEPT of "sorry", "understand" etc.

[FFFerrari]

I hope the WMSC gathers quickly to resolve this matter so we can put it behind us. Luckily it's Hungary next weekend.

[hogo]

so its strange to see Massa slow down with a reason???and why did he not look so happy on the podium and PC??

Yeah he couldn't even put on a fake smile, how hard can this be? You don't need superb acting skills for that! And he claims to be a team player... despite of what he says in the interviews I don't think so now.

[DonXabi]

A couple of points that spring to my mind - first is that Ferrari HAVE broken rules here (like it or not), the FIA have fined them and they have accepted - therefore rules have clearly been broken so I expect the Council to take the result away.

Second, Massa was quite clearly the quicker of the two (as he was in Australia) and Alonso had to resort to getting the team to juggle it for him - but what I dont really get is that why the need to do it anyway? Mathmatically Alonso can still win the Championship (maybe Massa too - not checked that), but realistically unless Red Bull suddenly grind to a halt for the next few races and Alonso wins them all (unlikely)............he's not, so why bother? - just let them race and get the 1-2 for Ferrari against McLaren and RB.

A real shame to be honest as the car was clearly the quickest out there - first time for a long time - but the whole thing has been overshadowed but this pointless political 'shame'. I am a Ferrari fan (hence I'm here!) but there is no defence for what they have done and for the blatant way they did it - pretty sure there are more 'covert' ways they could have achieved it - better still, just let the drivers get on with it.

[aroutis]

so its strange to see Massa slow down with a reason???and why did he not look so happy on the podium and PC??

Number of reasons, because perhaps he felt like crap after losing every chance he had for a shot to a WDC, and that doesn't have to be because of team orders but because of a mis downshift for example.

In the end of the day you'll have to ask him.

[Ferrari_gal]

It had nothing to do with Alonso, so how about you stop crying about him, he did not make the call

Fair enough, but why must Massa pay ??????????????? He had nothing to do with it either !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jacquesvw]

This is allot of publicity for them, I'm sure their sponsors will pay the $100K

[Ferrari_gal]

I thought the same thing, but after hearing Stefano talk to the press its all 100% clear to me, there were no team order whatsoever, smedley just informed massa that alonso was catching him, for some reason massa decided he better let alonso through for the championship and massa felt very happy to do the job, in no way was the decision forced on him, as far as im concerned this is the end of the matter, no need for any further investigation. :lol

:roll...:rotfl,:rotfl:lou

[vcs316]

Some thoughts before hitting the road
July 26, 2010 by joesaward

I am off back to Paris by road today and I thought, given the response to what happened at Hockenheim on Sunday, that it would be a good idea to take a step back from the nitty-gritty paint a view of the event with a rather broader brush. I have no doubt that there will be much analysis elsewhere of the technical issues involved. I could write about the duel of fastest laps between the Ferrari drivers in the final laps of the race, as each apparently tried to prove a point. Prior to the change of position on lap 49 Felipe Massa’s best lap was a 1m17.166s. Fernando Alonso’s was a 1m17.012s. The difference was not big enough to allow Alonso to overtake. He could not do it. After the changeover Alonso took his best lap time down to 1m16.770s on lap 51. Massa was clearly dispirited and dropped back towards Vettel, although it was clear that he had the pace to hold off Sebastian if that was what was required. Then towards the end of the race, Felipe seemed to revive and attack and the two Ferrari drivers traded fastest laps. On lap 65 Massa set a 1m16.182s, just slower than Alonso’s 1m16.103s. Alonso could manage only a 1m16.505s on the same lap. On lap 66 Alonso took his best down to 1m15.880s, Massa recorded a 1m16.097s. Vettel ended up trumping the pair of them on the very last lap, but he was clearly not really trying that hard in the final part of the race and set the fastest lap to amuse himself. Prior to that it seemed that he had accepted that track position meant that there was no point in pushing. If one cannot overtake there is not much point in taking unnecessary risks. He took the points. That was all the car was going to achieve. The numbers prove that Alonso was not really quicker than Massa, although that analysis may be skewed by the fact that the leader does not have to scorch away if it is not essential. The art is to win the race at the slowest possible pace, so as not to stress the car more than is absolutely necessary. The fact that Alonso made a lot of noise on the radio about how quick he was is neither here nor there. If he could overtake Massa, he should have done it. Clearly he could not. And when he was allowed to overtake he did not prove conclusively that he had the quicker car.

Long after the race was done and the penalty announced I sat down with the Ferrari press officer Luca Colajanni and we talked the whole thing through, without any emotion involved. From that it became clear that the problem is simply one of the way one looks at the sport. Sebastian Vettel was not a threat to the Ferrari 1-2. He might have been if the car had suddenly improved, but one should not be making such decisions based on ifs and buts. The evidence was that the Ferraris had Vettel under control and Sebastian’s pace suggests that he knew that.

The rancour between Ferrari and the fans is about a clash of philosophies. For the average fan what is important is not just that they watch a straight fight between two competitors, but that the sport itself is portrayed in a good light. Fans are passionate about the sport, about its traditions and they want to be able to say that they are proud of it when challenged by some ping-pong freak or a follower of synchronised swimming. The media may or may not be the representatives of the fans (the fans have no representation without the media) but what motivated the attacks on Alonso after the race was a mixture of two things: one was that many of the sport’s writers are passionate fans; the second was that for the professional journalists this represented a good story. Alonso’s responses to the questions indicated that he feels that all the F1 press are simply hacks looking for a front page lead. He needs to be educated to fully understand why it is that he is not as popular as perhaps he should be given the talents he has.

No real fan can be proud of a sport that allows things like the Ferrari switch at Hockenheim. It compounded the widely-held belief that F1 is a business rather than a sport.

Ferrari believes in certain sporting ideals, but the view is that F1 is a team sport and that the individual must therefore be subjugated for the good of the cause. The cause is to sell more Ferrari road cars, generate better profits for the company and maintain the F1 marketing “tool” by keeping the sponsors happy. One must therefore ask the question: Did Ferrari achieve these goals in Hockenheim? The team management obviously felt that giving Alonso more points than Massa was the right thing to do. One can see that argument. Massa started the race with 67 points and Alonso had 98. A victory for Massa and a failure to score by Alonso would have put the two very close in the championship. There are still eight of the 19 races remaining and so the World Championship remains wide open. Massa took the lead at the start after Vettel aggressively shoved Alonso towards the pitwall. This was the fault of neither driver. Things happen in races and the drivers have to accept them. That’s racing!

The Ferrari argument is that if the team is to have any chance of winning the title this year it is best not to have the drivers splitting the available points between them. Colajanni argued that Massa will be paid back for what he did when – and if – the circumstances allow it. Ferrari’s attitude is really just an attempt to bring order to the chaos of life and control as many elements as possible. But what happens, say, if Alonso slips on a banana skin and breaks his leg? Massa will be less able to offer a challenge because he has been disadvantaged with the Hockenheim manoeuvre. I think it is fair to say that by asking Massa to do what is best for the team, Ferrari is putting all of its eggs in one basket. It may work out and Fernando may sweep to a third title. The theory goes that people will then buy Ferrari road cars and other paraphernalia as a result of his triumph.

Hmmmm…

I would argue (and did) that what drives sports fans to spend their money on luxuries such as team memorabilia and very fast cars is not the result, but rather the way results are achieved. They will spend more if they feel an engagement with the team. If it makes them feel good.

There are two ways of winning: one can win in a functional sense and one can win in style. This is why I believe Massa is more popular than Alonso, because while Fernando has had all manner of scrapes and question marks during his F1 career, the drive to win has always been a functional one. Winning was the goal and the route taken to get there was not important to him. Massa, on the other hand, has shown that one can be a champion without actually being the World Champion. He showed that in Brazil in 2008. The hard-bitten F1 folks would argue that losing with grace is still losing, but they miss the point that one can win in defeat and lose in victory. What Massa did on Sunday is going to hurt his image in Brazil a great deal, just as Rubens Barrichello was badly damaged by helping Ferrari (and by extension Michael Schumacher) in the old days. Felipe made a huge sacrifice on Sunday and one wonders whether it really will be repaid.

On the other side of the coin, Ferrari blew a great opportunity on Sunday. It would have been the perfect human interest story to have Massa win a race a year to the day after he was nearly killed in Hungary. It would have been a fairytale, and people like fairytales. They like happy endings. This is why film makers for generations have used them. They sell. They make people feel warm and wonderful.

Ferrari’s choice to go down the pragmatic route rather than indulge in a little romance is a sign that the firm is run by people who do what is best for the company, put who at the same time put Ferrari before the sport as a whole. Jean Todt was like that when he was running things at Maranello, but he now has a new job and he has a different attitude. His job now is to protect the sport and I feel that Ferrari’s punishment is not over yet. If one is given a job, one does the best one possibly can in that role. Alonso said that himself on Sunday. So Ferrari should expect Todt to do his FIA job as it should be done.

I have long believed that several of the other top teams have a better understanding than Ferrari of why it is important to always put the sport first. Pull back a little more and one might conclude that the problem is that sporting values and money are impossible bedmates. There is not much that can be done about that. They need one another and so are stuck in a marriage that is not always plain sailing.

The same problem is being seen everywhere in F1. Some believe that F1 is there in order to generate the maximum profits for them. This works as long as they get away with it, but it does not work for the sport. If ever one needed evidence of this one had only to go to Hockenheim. There are six German drivers in F1 today. Vettel is battling for the World Championship, admittedly Michael Schumacher is a shadow of his former self, but one would expect the grandstands to be full all the time. The official crowd figures were little short of disastrous. Two years ago the three-day crowd figure was 240,000, with 115,000 fans present on race day. This year the three-day total was 165,000, with race day boasting just 65,000. And this with six Germans on the grid. The problem is that the tickets are simply too expensive because the businessmen are squeezing the sport too much…

Business and sport at odds as ever…

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/some-thoughts-before-hitting-the-road/

[mad_ani]

Colajanni argued that Massa will be paid back for what he did when – and if – the circumstances allow it.

Before I jump to any conclusions can someone clear this up for me please???


Well wouldnt we be breaking the rules again???Why stage another show like this???
Would we not get fined again???
"Paid back"---in terms of cash??

[mad_ani]

Number of reasons, because perhaps he felt like crap after losing every chance he had for a shot to a WDC, and that doesn't have to be because of team orders but because of a mis downshift for example.

In the end of the day you'll have to ask him.

From the PC


Q. Fernando managed to get past you. Did you make a mistake? Was it under braking?

FM: He passed me.

Massa was very diplomatic and did not answer the question.So it was not a driver mistake as Massa says.

Its just that the radio broadcasts made it really obvious that there is some sort of team orders were going on...

[eleanor]

Supposedly he was 'sorry' for him not doing well with his tyres etc. (according to Stefano)

do they think we are stupid or what?
thanks to alonso, ferrari spirit will be gone forever... with that "move" ferrari showed a lack of respect for massa. think about him celebrating one year after that terrible accident like this. for the first time, I'm ashamed to be a tifosi fan.

[hogo]

Before I jump to any conclusions can someone clear this up for me please???


Well wouldnt we be breaking the rules again???Why stage another show like this???
Would we not get fined again???
"Paid back"---in terms of cash??
Seriously everyone is breaking this stupid rule, so why shouldn't we? Must we be the saints or what? If you will play by the rules and everyone else won't , forget about winning anything.

[Angelus]

I am trying to say that Alonso is skilled enough to make a clean move on Massa with the speed he had...and he didnt need Massa to slow down to let him by.

Well we saw earlier how skilled Alonso is "How ridiculous is this?"

[shostak]

do they think we are stupid or what?
thanks to alonso, ferrari spirit will be gone forever... with that "move" ferrari showed a lack of respect for massa. think about him celebrating one year after that terrible accident like this. for the first time, I'm ashamed to be a tifosi fan.

With Massa 'move' he showed a lack of respect for Ferrari. Do you remember Brazil 2007 or Japan 2006? He let pass Kimi and Schumy, but he made it less obvious. He wanted to everybody watch it yesterday absolutely clear, and now Ferrari will pay for it.

[shostak]

Well we saw earlier how skilled Alonso is "How ridiculous is this?"

Both them were near to collision, this was ridiculous.

[Angelus]

Both them were near to collision, this was ridiculous.

Yes because Alonso tried to overtake with his skills and it wasn't success.

[Greig]

Yes because Alonso tried to overtake with his skills and it wasn't success.

To be fair it's pretty hard to over take your team mate and make it really clean, twice Alonso was up the inside of Massa but backed out of it when it became clear Massa was not up for giving him much space, that's racing I guess, but had Massa been another car then Alonso would probably have not backed out of it and just stuck his car to the inside and risked the collision :-)

[shostak]

Yes because Alonso tried to overtake with his skills and it wasn't success.

Today it's impossible to overtake a car of your teammate in F1, but Massa is more agressive with Alonso than with other drivers in these situations. I remember a GP in which Massa was overtaken clearly by Button but when Alonso tried it he was very, very more agressive to avoid it. This is not normal.

[theodorus8864]

Everyone starts talking like they know how Massa feels being mistreated, how Alonso being bully over his teammate. Have you guys blinded yourself into mere support? Hello!!!! If you guys have so much time arguing about who's right or wrong, why don't you save it for some constructive comments for the team as a collectivity. Start seeing a bigger picture please. We even have many races coming up till year end.

[eleanor]

With Massa 'move' he showed a lack of respect for Ferrari.
come'on, be resonable. ferrari wanted alonso to be the winner, even if massa did a better job. he is the man with the money, so I guess he deserve the first ferrari victory of the season. :-!
If alonso was really faster, why was massa leadind the race?


Do you remember Brazil 2007 or Japan 2006? He let pass Kimi and Schumy, but he made it less obvious. He wanted to everybody watch it yesterday absolutely clear, and now Ferrari will pay for it.
what are you talking about? massa was out of the title challange in brazil and japan, so it's different...

[Greig]

come'on, be resonable. ferrari wanted alonso to be the winner, even if massa did a better job. he is the man with the money, so I guess he deserve the first ferrari victory of the season. :-!
If alonso was really faster, why was massa leadind the race?


Oh come on we all seen the start and why Massa was leading, Massa done very well but it was clear Alonso was the quicker driver especially on the hard tyres as had been shown over the whole weekend. If Alonso had not got put into the wall by Vettel and led the race with Massa behind then there would have been no complaints here and just joy at a great race.

[Tech_Skill]

Oh come on we all seen the start and why Massa was leading, Massa done very well but it was clear Alonso was the quicker driver especially on the hard tyres as had been shown over the whole weekend. If Alonso had not got put into the wall by Vettel and led the race with Massa behind then there would have been no complaints here and just joy at a great race.

Alonso actually got a fantastic start, one of his best this season, as soon as the light went out i could see right away he was gonna be p1, until vettel ran him into the wall, alonso fought back well though and move him over and took him into turn 1.

Thing is, the area i wanna see Fernando improve in, is overtaking, on his day, he is a absolutely ruthless overtaker he needs to concentrate more on getting past people rather than being frustrated when he is stuck behind people. You dont see Hamilton doing that stuff really, he just passes them anyway and anywhere possible.

[shostak]

what are you talking about? massa was out of the title challange in brazil and japan, so it's different...

A Ferrari driver must put team before personal interests, and a Alonso's victory was better yesterday for team. Let pass Alonso was for team, not for Alonso. We dont know how many times Smedley repeat this message 'Alonso is faster than you' to Massa, but i'm sure it wasnt only one time.

[Greig]

A Ferrari driver must put team before personal interests, and a Alonso's victory was better yesterday for team. Let pass Alonso was for team, not for Alonso. We dont know how many times Smedley repeat this message 'Alonso is faster than you' to Massa, but i'm sure it wasnt only one time.

I imagine it was only the once or we would have heard about it, Massa never even replied.

[theodorus8864]

Alonso actually got a fantastic start, one of his best this season, as soon as the light went out i could see right away he was gonna be p1, until vettel ran him into the wall, alonso fought back well though and move him over and took him into turn 1.

Thing is, the area i wanna see Fernando improve in, is overtaking, on his day, he is a absolutely ruthless overtaker he needs to concentrate more on getting past people rather than being frustrated when he is stuck behind people. You dont see Hamilton doing that stuff really, he just passes them anyway and anywhere possible.

Good points taken! Hopefully not because lack of downforce which make our drivers losing confidence to overtake. Once the issues 're solved, I will be more than happy to see our drivers ready to spice up the show.

[eleanor]

Thing is, the area i wanna see Fernando improve in, is overtaking, on his day, he is a absolutely ruthless overtaker he needs to concentrate more on getting past people rather than being frustrated when he is stuck behind people. You dont see Hamilton doing that stuff really, he just passes them anyway and anywhere possible.
+1

I'm watching f1 cause I want to see action. I was hoping for a great battle between alonso and massa cause they're both great drivers...

[mad_ani]

I imagine it was only the once or we would have heard about it, Massa never even replied.

Well, just because BBC didnt broadcast it...doesnt mean he didnt have his say....we may never know until we get the full recordings...which I imagine is quite hard for an ordinary race fan.....

[Angelus]

I still don't get it why Ferrari used team orders to let Alonso win for the championship. Massa ain't so much behind in the points and is capable of winning the championship too. Without reversing places on top they would have been really close in the points and maybe in the next race Massa could have passed Alonso in the points.

[Greig]

Well, just because BBC didnt broadcast it...doesnt mean he didnt have his say....we may never know until we get the full recordings...which I imagine is quite hard for an ordinary race fan.....

BBC don't control the coverage, we would have heard it, the radio is open its up the broadcaster to let us hear so why would they not let us hear something like that LOL think about it before posting :-)

[theodorus8864]

Well, just because BBC didnt broadcast it...doesnt mean he didnt have his say....we may never know until we get the full recordings...which I imagine is quite hard for an ordinary race fan.....

F1 Broadcast suddenly becomes something so 'british'. Aside from what happened yesterday, I am really on Martin & James with all comments trying to corner our teams and drivers. What's wrong with media nowadays? has it been something facist by ignoring neutral and fair coverage?!!!

[Tech_Skill]

I still don't get it why Ferrari used team orders to let Alonso win for the championship. Massa ain't so much behind in the points and is capable of winning the championship too. Without reversing places on top they would have been really close in the points and maybe in the next race Massa could have passed Alonso in the points.

Dude, I love massa, but lets be real here, he isnt beating Lewis Hamilton or Vettel for a WDC, and thats the bottom line here. Painful to say that, but this was one good race from Massa, Alonso handed him his ass all season long, he cant complain, massa had his shot in 2008, he got unlucky, maybe next year he will improve enough to get another shot but Alonso is clearly the better driver.

The one area i thought massa would get alonso, was over a single lap in quali, but i think i underestimated Alonso's raw speed, over a single lap massa cant touch him.

This is why Alonso was hired, Luca D knew exactly what he was doing, face several years of Hamilton domination or sign Alonso, Kimi and Massa aint got what it takes to beat this guy and deep down, Ferrari know that.

[Hermann]

Dude, I love massa, but lets be real here, he isnt beating Lewis Hamilton or Vettel for a WDC, and thats the bottom line here. Painful to say that, but this was one good race from Massa, Alonso handed him his ass all season long, he cant complain, massa had his shot in 2008, he got unlucky, maybe next year he will improve enough to get another shot but Alonso is clearly the better driver.

The one area i thought massa would get alonso, was over a single lap in quali, but i think i underestimated Alonso's raw speed, over a single lap massa cant touch him.

This is why Alonso was hired, Luca D knew exactly what he was doing, face several years of Hamilton domination or sign Alonso, Kimi and Massa aint got what it takes to beat this guy and deep down, Ferrari know that.

I agree, the problem is that Ferrari couldn't find the right words to communicate this to the fans. They are having serious PR issues.

[FFFerrari]

This is why Alonso was hired, Luca D knew exactly what he was doing, face several years of Hamilton domination or sign Alonso, Kimi and Massa aint got what it takes to beat this guy and deep down, Ferrari know that.

That is your opinion, but there are loads of other opinions about the driving abilities of Alonso, Massa and Kimi too. I believe that the reason of hiring Alonso is some combination of skill and boatload of Santander money. Yes, he is a decent driver but he isn't head and shoulders above Massa.

[Greig]

That is your opinion, but there are loads of other opinions about the driving abilities of Alonso, Massa and Kimi too. I believe that the reason of hiring Alonso is some combination of skill and boatload of Santander money. Yes, he is a decent driver but he isn't head and shoulders above Massa.

So far this season has shown that he is really, I love Massa but I think we all knew Alonso was coming to be the team leader, nothing to do with Santander, Ferrari wanted Alonso long before then only personal issues with Todt stopped him being at Maranello before now :-)

[voiko]

if they srrip us of our WCC championship i would LOVE for the same situation to happen again in a few races and we clearly tell them over the radio to switch position and massa gets to throw one back in the FIA's face :P and Alonso wins WDC

[Tech_Skill]

That is your opinion, but there are loads of other opinions about the driving abilities of Alonso, Massa and Kimi too. I believe that the reason of hiring Alonso is some combination of skill and boatload of Santander money. Yes, he is a decent driver but he isn't head and shoulders above Massa.

Dude, this was Massa's best performance of the season, Alonso outqualified him by 0.5 of a second in the same car.

I dont believe in the Santander rumours, Alonso had an agreement to join Ferrari in 2011 a while back, i think it was as early as 2008/2009, Kimi Raikonnen was lazy and overrated, I cant remember the race but I think it was raining and the race was stopped, the guy was sitting in the paddock with an ice cream instead when there was a chance he might have to go back out race......can you ever picture Alonso/schumacher doing something like that?

Luca D wanted Michael Schumacher part2, the closest thing in this era to Schumacher is Alonso, in terms of their attitude and mentality on and off the track, Massa is good as a front runner, but coming through the field, driving through rain, driving on the ragged edge.....he isnt beating hamilton, this is why Luca D brought Alonso in straight away rather than wait till 2011, therefore I don't buy Santander stuff, if Ferrari really didnt want Alonso that bad, they would have waited till 2011 when they had the agreement, not rushed the deal through asap for 2010.

[sav_pap]

Couldn't just do it with another way? Using perhaps the McCheaters codes (save fuel etc.) They used it already and nobody said anything about punishment.:roll

[WS6TransAm01]

OMG, Get over it. Its a team sport! TEAM! Not individual.

Massa was a poor team player on Sunday. Don't get me wrong, when it came to Kimi or Massa, I was on the side of Kimi, but when Alonso came into Ferrari, knowing his cry-baby ways I was on the side of Massa all the way.

What he did on Sunday was was the worst display of being a baby ever! In any other sport, if your coach tells you to get off the field and subs someone else in, you do it and STFU! I used to play hockey, and if I was told by my coach to sit out a shift in order for someone less tired or dare I say better than me be out on the ice in order for us to maintain/get a lead, I did it, knowing it was best for the team and never threw a todler like tantrum.

That is what Massa did, letting the pass take place in such a obvious way was his equivelant of a 3 year old's tantrum when he is told he can not have the toy in the middle of the store.

For f*cks sake Felipe, you're a professional who is getting paid by the team, why would you do anything to impune the honor of your team? f*cking baby.

I was not happy with the team's dicision to let Alonso pass, if he wanted to be in front, he should have done it himself. But the decision was made, and when it was made I thought to myself that Massa should fallow and deal with it.

Slow down about .1seconds a lap, let Fernando get within .3seconds of you, then late brake going into the hairpin, overshoot the apex and let Alonso take the line in the turn. Simple. Looks like a mistake, and every one is happy. Or come out of the corner too hot, go wide, spin the wheels a little making it look like you broke traction and let Nando by. What he did by pulling over as if to grab a bite to eat was simply sickening to see. As soon as I saw it I turned to my GF and said Ferrari is going to get nailed for this.

I hated that they thought Alonso should pass, and I hate how Massa did it. Very unprofessional on Massa's part, but it is a team sport.

[Tony]

I think the threat is very real that Ferrari will lose their WCC points for this race.... I still can't believe the mismanagement that is going on here.... by now the number one should have been established internally... they should have already discussed this contingency and explained to Massa that he has to be number 2 for the rest of the season.... since these rules were already developed because of what Ferrari did in the past, you figure they would be ahead of the game on this.... they should create an internal policy that after half way through the season and assuming X point spread, the guy leading the championship at that point is henceforth favoured....

[ferrari4life]

Is it just me or does it seem Massa is trying to wash this laundry out in public a little too much.. maybe its just me.. I would have prefered he dealt with this behind closed doors.

[Tech_Skill]

What he did by pulling over as if to grab a bite to eat was simply sickening to see. As soon as I saw it I turned to my GF and said Ferrari is going to get nailed for this.


I said exactly the same thing to Mrs Tech and then i started screaming at the tv when I heard Smedley saying sorry on the open radio broadcast, was always gonna be an investigation, seriously, we have compromised ourselves yet again, McLiars must be pissing themselves, but Massa was obviously emotional and wanted it to be known it was a team order, but to be honest, when Alonso nearly passed him the 1st time, the team should have got involved then and made it happen, Massa was locking up all over the place, they should have made something up about his tyres, told him to take it easy and that if Alonso comes up to him, not to do something stupid.

[Tech_Skill]

I think the threat is very real that Ferrari will lose their WCC points for this race.... I still can't believe the mismanagement that is going on here.... by now the number one should have been established internally... they should have already discussed this contingency and explained to Massa that he has to be number 2 for the rest of the season.... since these rules were already developed because of what Ferrari did in the past, you figure they would be ahead of the game on this.... they should create an internal policy that after half way through the season and assuming X point spread, the guy leading the championship at that point is henceforth favoured....

Stefano, stay or go????

I like him alot, he has improved in my eyes the last few weeks, but I'll tell you one thing, Ross Brawn would not have handled it that bad. I never understood why we let him go, we should try to poach him again man, he is sitting over at Mercedes with a crap car and a past it schumacher, i reckon he would consider it.

[Greig]

Stefano, stay or go????

I like him alot, he has improved in my eyes the last few weeks, but I'll tell you one thing, Ross Brawn would not have handled it that bad. I never understood why we let him go, we should try to poach him again man, he is sitting over at Mercedes with a crap car and a past it schumacher, i reckon he would consider it.

errrr Austria 2001, and 2002 ring any bells LOL? How can you say Brawn would handle it better when clearly he never :-) Never mind how he handled giving Jenson no1 at Brawn either......

[Tech_Skill]

errrr Austria 2001, and 2002 ring any bells LOL? How can you say Brawn would handle it better when clearly he never :-) Never mind how he handled giving Jenson no1 at Brawn either......

Good point, but in Austria 2002, we werent summoned to the WMC with a chance of losing WCC and WDC points, Brawn or Ferrari personnel wasn't on the open radio saying sorry to Barrichello afterwards, the press officer wasn't out saying stuff that was contradictory to what brawn himself was saying.

If teams order were illegal back then, can you see Brawn allowing some bloke to on the radio to make it that obvious we were breaking the rules before and after, and then allow different people to say different things to the media?

Im not convinced.

[Nova]

so its strange to see Massa slow down with a reason???and why did he not look so happy on the podium and PC??

On the podium? Well, I gotta say...he looked so poopypants on the podium...truth is, FA WAS faster than him...Vettel WAS catching them both up..so thats all cleared up...now, I know Felipe was feeling bad, but how did he know he was going to win the race simply because he led 17 laps?? And if your asked to move over by your employer, who I may add pays u 15 million a year, you do it, and you dont look all poopypants for the world to see.....if him n Rob wouldve acted in a more professional manor, they wouldve got no penalty...Felipe a year ago was almost killed..now he is doing well again, starting to drive good again, is still driving for Ferrari, has a family and really, a great life....no time for poopypants Felipe...